A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Schatze

A lot of people are really tone deaf in regards to books. No, all your favorite characters are not gonna end up on the same side fighting off the others [sadface].

Do you run around tell kids there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus too?

Jerk.

[dechire]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Do you run around tell kids there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus too?

Jerk.

It's pretty true, besides that the lines aren't fully drawn yet and you should be able to see by now there is no black and white in Martin's world. We have a lot to see play out before we know what the next war will even be like.

There are really two things you should know about this world.

1. No one is safe
2. Characters can change

edit: dammit i was hoping this would push it over one more page.

[Wombat]

Originally Posted by Schatze

Sansa's wolf is dead. She's not going to end up some heroic yet machiavellian character fighting with Jon, Bran, Arya on the "Wolf Team!"

Even ignoring that little nugget, all of her character development; weakness, naivete, abuse, betrayal, abuse, betrayal, abuse, betrayal, and a total lack of loyalty to anything but her own self-interests (excluding her stupid fairy tales, in which Littlefinger gets to play Prince Codpiece) makes it unlikely that she'll turn against Littlefinger especially after he gives her some power; she'll be his very willing pawn/partner. That is, unless he stupidly betrays her after she's learned his games of manipulation, but even then you won't see Sansa go running to her relatives who she never liked or had any loyalty to in the first place (at least the ones who are alive). I could see either the former or the latter happening. Although I wouldn't rule out Sansa turning out to be nothing pivotal.

A lot of people are really tone deaf in regards to books. No, all your favorite characters are not gonna end up on the same side fighting off the others [sadface]. And Daenerys is really well on the road to becoming a true Targaryen (and doing the reverse of what the narrative did to Jaime/Hound), so a hot heroic Jon/Tyrion DP of her not likely in future.

I couldn't agree with you less. Sansa's arc just screams to me that after sucking for so long she will finally get her act together and be the one person that has any chance of taking LF out (and that's more his failing to check his blindspot in regards to her). Although I do agree that that seems to not matter in the long run, unless Sansa's House Arryn forces somehow stop the Others long enough for Dany to get there.

I totally disagree with anyone voluntarily joining the Others (though Stannis should be turned to a Wight this book or next). The Others have shown no inclination for allies, nor are they likely to suffer any setbacks where they would even need to ally with anyone to win. I fully expect everyone to "ally" to defeat them - though that allying is of the kind where they are backstabbing each other even while fighting the Others, such that they lose more named characters to their own shenanigans than they do to the Others.

And while I don't doubt for a minute that Jon & Tyrion will be the other dragonriders for the final fight, Dany won't live through it for any madness to matter.

[Schatze]

Here are three major themes with Daeny:

1.) She tries to do well, but other people come in and fuck things up and end up making things worse. What lessons does she take away from this?
2.) She's already becoming paranoid as hell. Constantly wondering who will betray her, and pushing away the people she can perhaps trust the most because of the prophecy (self-fulfilling, perhaps) of the betrayals.
3.) Everyone around her is trying to use her for their own ends.

What do you get from this mixture? Someone who ends up disillusioned and misanthropic. Two, you get a highly paranoid individual who keeps looking for the next betrayal, or if this or that event is the betrayal, etc (especially in those who she trusts and is closest to). Three, she's decided she's no longer going to be a pawn, but then, it goes back to number 1, and just doing the right thing won't yield the results she wants; thus, using others as pawns to achieve and maintain the goals she's going after. She's already demonstrated she can be extremely ruthless, add in these factors, and you've got yourself a Targaryen.

Meanwhile, you forget that fire is just as bad as ice. Daenerys and the Targaryens (of old, at least) are pretty much the embodiment of fire. While fire might be in opposition to ice and the others, either force will fuck up anything else caught in the middle (Hi Jon!). The forces are impersonal in a lot of ways, but through the various factions acting for them/through them for their own ends, either will kill anyone caught in the center.

Finally, Martin decided to make thoroughly horrible characters into some of people's favorites, redeeming Jaime etc. Why wouldn't he do the opposite? I sure as hell would. And it seems to me he's setting up Daenerys to be that one. I doubt he'd devote Daenerys entire narrative to date into setting her up for a change into disposition (a reversion to type, no less) only to have it not happen. I mean, just look at the overall pattern of the narrative in the context of her character. Everything around her seems tuned to bring out the specific traits that are related to Targaryens.

Sansa, she may or may not take out LF. The problem with that is you have to ignore the whole narrative where she desparately tries to find someone to trust only to betrayed, and here comes Littlefinger presenting himself as the final safe harbor. Now, you can argue that Sansa may pick up enough of a cynical, realpolitik world view to realize what she really is to Littlefinger, but there's some key differences between the two. While Littlefinger is driven by emotion and past slights, he's playing a highly emotionless game. Sansa is primarily driven by emotions and emotional logic (Hi Cersei and Catelyn). While, again, this may change, there's been no sign of it. Which is why I think it would require Littlefinger stabbing her in the back, or making a mistake and revealing that she's just a tool or pawn, for her to turn on him. And then, if she takes him out, it'll only be because of his underestimating her.

But I don't expect her to be Littlefinger 2.0, she's just too dumb and emotional. And her teaming up with her surviving family? She hates Arya and Jon, and I don't think she cares either way for Bran or Rickon. If she does end up being a player, she won't suddenly decide that she suddenly has some loyalty to her family.

Arya, I still have no idea where she's going. But if you look at what Nymeria has been doing, and if you assume the wolves are reflections of some aspect of their individual Starks, she may end up bringing in/creating a whole 'nother faction. There's a bunch of dangling threads around Arya that I can't begin to see how they'll weave together. But I'm betting it's a hell of a lot more complex than her just becoming an assassin.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Major News

Final Martin Manuscript Triggers Mass Suicides at Bantam

by Narceen Plowers

Panic, hysteria, depression, and mass suicide struck the offices of Bantam Books today when New York Times bestselling author George R. R. Martin turned in a manuscript for the final book of his A Song of Fire and Ice series that came in at a concise 87 pages.

"As I sat down to write the book, I suddenly realized that I could tie everything up in a satisfying climax at novella length," said Martin in a prepared statement. "Brevity being the soul of wit, I decided to do just that. I think all the fans of he series will be very pleased with the way it turned out."

"The world is a black, hellish nightmare of unceasing despair and endless sorrow!" cried Martin's editor Anne Groell, rending her garments as her editorial assistants stood wailing around her. "A stygian darkness descends, blotting out all life and hope! O Tempora! O Mores! My life work reduced to ashes before my eyes, leaving not but a voice and bitter weeping! Oh cruel fate! I die!" she declared, just before committing seppuku with a letter opener.

"That bastard! That sick, heartless bastard!" declared a Bantam marketing director as he loaded bullets into a Lugar. "After all we've done for him, this is how he repays us? Do you know how much money we had to pay Time to call him 'the American Tolkien?'"

"The thing you've got to understand is that fantasy readers buy books based on their thickness," said a Bantam sales rep who asked not to be named "for insurance purposes." "We actually have these people on video taking out a measuring tape when deciding on which fantasy books to buy. The new Martin will be dead on arrival, Bantam will go under, and none of us will be able to feed our families. Now you have to excuse me, a spot's opened up on the ledge."

Martin's own fans seemed to take the news in stride. When reached for comment, David "Lodengarl" McCaman, Baron in the A Song of Fire and Ice fan club Brotherhood Without Banners, said: "The Lord Martin giveth, and the Lord Martin taketh away. Ours is not to question His will, for we are but lowly supplicants before his Divine Majesty from whom all fiction flows. Verily, we have stood by our Lord for the Stealing of the Hugos, and the Knighting of the Brothers, and the Dispensing of the Hot Dogs, where dogs with relish and without were dispensed, each unto their order, at the hand of the Lord himself, and we shall stand with him unto the end of the world, nah, unto the very Gates of Hell!"

When reached for additional comment, Martin's companion Parris said he was unable to come to the phone. "Sorry, he's busy rolling around in his $20 bill room, shouting something about 'Free at last, free at last, Lord, Lord, I'm free at last!' and 'Howard's $100 is mine!' Can I have him call you back?"

Until the final death toll is known, it is unclear whether it will top the previous record of 129 Martin-related suicides on January 8, 1990, following CBS' cancellation of Beauty and the Beast.

[Mudcrush Durtfeet]

Couple days late yes?

[Lusiphur]

Just a little late indeed.

While this fail may not be epic, it is still fail.

[Screamfeeder]

nm lawl i suck

[Lleauaric~EW]

Meh.

Didnt see it as a April Fools joke. I thought it was funny and pokes fun at the whole situation.

[Regime]

I want to see FrankenGregor kill a dragon

[Schatze]

You know how much you pissed me off by bumping this? So much that I'm going to bump it too.

The "pay it forward" of internet passive aggressiveness.

[Regime]

Originally Posted by Schatze

You know how much you pissed me off by bumping this? So much that I'm going to bump it too.

The "pay it forward" of internet passive aggressiveness.

Keep it bumped next to Malazan ) my 2 favorite books

[Chaotic]

Barnes¿&¿Noble.com - Books: A Dance with Dragons, by George R. R. Martin, Compact Disc, Unabridged

Barnes¿&¿Noble.com - Books: A Dance with Dragons (Song of Ice and Fire #5), by George R. R. Martin, Hardcover

September 30th, i put my pre-order in.


I got my friend to pick up the first book after alot of tooth pulling (wahhh 1000 pages)

long story short, hes now on aFfC and loving it completely. I intend to read this book in one day when I get it.

[Soygen]

Until I see it here: Update - A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin's Official Website I am not getting too hyped.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Yeah, they've had that date up for awhile now.

Originally Posted by Chaotic

I intend to read this book in one day when I get it.

Go you? I've never understood people that take pride in reading a book quickly. All they usually do is skim themselves out of the prose and nuance.