A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

[Khorum]

I'm SURE Loras and Renly were cosexual. I really doubt anyone could miss that point between overt behavior on Loras' part or by observation during Catelyn's POV or by Brienne's implications. I'm not sure which prior poster suggested that Loras may NOT have been playing receiver to Renly, but it wasn't me---I'm pretty sure Loras swings both ways.

I _am_ sold on the notion that Loras is in an incestuous or at least a more-than-fraternal-love affair with Margaery though. I'm still on book2 during this reread, but soon as I get to the bigger clues I'll quote them.

As far as Jaime being Cersei's champion. Yeah, he threw her desperate plea into the fire. Yeah he muttered something faintly conclusive about it and yeah he may even mean it, but going to king's landing and being her champion would 'work' in his circumstances. It's the sort of measured unpredictability that Martin likes to do with Jaime's personality.

As to whether unGregor becomes Cersei's champion, it's likely, but it's MORE likely that qyburn saves his mercenary (literally) ass and sides with the septon, or better yet, allows the unGregor to be the CHURCH's champion.

UnGregor representing the new 'corrupted' church of the seven is thematic with the ghoulish, golem-like nature of the new church... it would be a perfect setup for a confrontation between UnGregor and the new High Septon versus a 'rediscovered' Sandor Clegane, who's currently playing monk in an old-style monastery. The church struggling with its new identity and its old monastic values while brother fights brother.

[Grimmlokk]

Ohhh I like that angle=) Could work wonderfully. New septon is clearly unorthodox and extremist enough to go for it.

[Nailius]

Actually it is right at the end of the 4th book that Ungregor can't be Cersei's champion. She insisted that the Queen/royal family could only be defended by the Kingsguard to fuck Margaery over because none of the able-bodied guard was at Kings Landing. So when she gets thrown in jail Qyborn tells her don't worry, and she pretty much realizes she fucked herself over by doing that because now Qyborn's champion can't defend her. I'm not sure what is going to end up happening, but I think that this is the end for Cersei (I can hope anyway).

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I guess the question is: would Sandor fight for Cersei? He served Joff all those years, and yes he is Kingsguard, but would the "reformed" version save her?

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Nailius

Actually it is right at the end of the 4th book that Ungregor can't be Cersei's champion. She insisted that the Queen/royal family could only be defended by the Kingsguard to fuck Margaery over because none of the able-bodied guard was at Kings Landing. So when she gets thrown in jail Qyborn tells her don't worry, and she pretty much realizes she fucked herself over by doing that because now Qyborn's champion can't defend her. I'm not sure what is going to end up happening, but I think that this is the end for Cersei (I can hope anyway).

I guess the question is: would Sandor fight for Cersei? He served Joff all those years, and yes he is Kingsguard, but would the "reformed" version save her?

Yeah Sandor is one of the few men on Westeros who still LEGALLY qualifies to be Cersei's champion (being kingsguard), but WOULD he? I'm not sold on whether or not he's reformed, but if the new church attacks and murders the monastic community that nurtured and accepted him, then that would go to motive :P

[Teger]

Sandor was removed from the Kingsguard for cowardice in the 3rd book (fleeing the battle at the end of the 2nd). He was replaced by one of Cersei's pet knights.

[Aulirophile]

I could imagine Loras and Renly, though it doesn't really illuminate anything.

Somewhat more interesting to me that I've been thinking about, the Maesters. The Old Citadel and Maesters existed before the Dragons came to Westeros. The actual dragons survived a mere 200 years, because the Maesters as a group killed them, according to off-hand comments by The Mage in Samwell's last chapter in AFfC. Slowly killed them, surely, secretly, but they died.

Maester's control all long-distance communication in all of Westeros. I honestly think that the amount of conspiracy that might exists amongst such an orginization to control, indirectly, so much of what is going on is huge. The Dragons returning would doubtless scare them though they seem to be treating it as nothing more then rumor so far. But the idea that Stannis is worshipping a different God, a God that does one magic of kind or another (everyone around the Red Priestess keeps saying stuff like that) might make them worry. I get the impression they don't like the idea of magic. Any magic.

So, if anyone was in a position to suddenly spark not only 300 years of unrest because they were stripped of the orders of the Star and Swords, but all the recent unrest because of the desecration of septs, septons, silent sisters, et al., the Maesters seem right up there. More so, if the Maesters are as against magic as they seem, that might mean they don't like any religion... or so it might be rumored. The kind of rumor a Faceless Man might evaluate.

[Teger]

You say the Maesters are against magic but isn't there a discussion, in, I believe, Book 1 about how one of the links on a maesters chain represents magical study? It's between the Stark's Maester and Bran, IIRC.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

My books are packed up at the moment, so this spelling is going to suck, but its the vaylaraen steel chain link that is for magic.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Teger

You say the Maesters are against magic but isn't there a discussion, in, I believe, Book 1 about how one of the links on a maesters chain represents magical study? It's between the Stark's Maester and Bran, IIRC.

Sure. Valyrean Steel link. But the discussion centers around how magic used to exist, doesn't exist anymore, can't exist anymore, and has fled the world forever. Despite stuff like the green sight and the Faceless Men, etc., still existing. Magic abounds in the world, but it was dying because "dragons are the source of magic." See Wildfire getting easier to make and the Pyromancers comments about it. Magic still exists in the world, but until Dany rebirthed dragons it was fading, which was why the Maesters killed the last dragons in the first place.

Now all those plans have been upset.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Aulirophile

Sure. Valyrean Steel link. But the discussion centers around how magic used to exist, doesn't exist anymore, can't exist anymore, and has fled the world forever. Despite stuff like the green sight and the Faceless Men, etc., still existing. Magic abounds in the world, but it was dying because "dragons are the source of magic." See Wildfire getting easier to make and the Pyromancers comments about it. Magic still exists in the world, but until Dany rebirthed dragons it was fading, which was why the Maesters killed the last dragons in the first place.

Now all those plans have been upset.

The whole anti-magic angle of the maesters is interpretive I think. It's unclear whether or not they actively sought out to extinguish magic or just helped to diminish the Targaryen monopoly on Dragons. There was some speculation from Maester Aemon himself about this, who was retrospect about his vow and how much the nightwatch has taken from him (he should've been king before even Aerys).

There was mention that when he was young Aemon, who was Aegon IV's bookish elder brother, was a bit of a scholar even when they were young even before he was sworn into the night watch.

SPOILER: If you haven't read the 'Dunk and Egg' short stories this is a decent spoiler: When he gets senile and starts rambling on the boat in AFfC, Maester Aemon starts referring to someone named 'Egg', who was his younger brother King Aegon IV (Aegon the Unlikely) about how he confirmed the Maesters' role in the fall of the Dragons. King Aegon, who is the squire Egg in the Dunk and Egg stories, goes on about his brother Aemon and this research, almost a hundred years before AGoT.

Whether or not the Maesters had direct involvement with the suppression of magic remains to be seen. But magic started seeping back into the world at the BEGINNING of A Game of Thrones, not just when the dragons hatch at the END.

The whole ASoIaF arc is about the return of Winter and the imminent invaion of the Others, and the Others had made their first appearance in the prologue of book one. Clearly magical creatures, they had started coming back long before the dragons were reborn, and there had been some references to how the Magic ebbed and waned parallel to the strength of the long winter cycles, and THIS winter is supposedly going to be the worst in ages.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Khorum

The whole anti-magic angle of the maesters is interpretive I think. It's unclear whether or not they actively sought out to extinguish magic or just helped to diminish the Targaryen monopoly on Dragons. There was some speculation from Maester Aemon himself about this, who was retrospect about his vow and how much the nightwatch has taken from him (he should've been king before even Aerys).

There was mention that when he was young Aemon, who was Aegon IV's bookish elder brother, was a bit of a scholar even when they were young even before he was sworn into the night watch.

SPOILER: If you haven't read the 'Dunk and Egg' short stories this is a decent spoiler: When he gets senile and starts rambling on the boat in AFfC, Maester Aemon starts referring to someone named 'Egg', who was his younger brother King Aegon IV (Aegon the Unlikely) about how he confirmed the Maesters' role in the fall of the Dragons. King Aegon, who is the squire Egg in the Dunk and Egg stories, goes on about his brother Aemon and this research, almost a hundred years before AGoT.

Whether or not the Maesters had direct involvement with the suppression of magic remains to be seen. But magic started seeping back into the world at the BEGINNING of A Game of Thrones, not just when the dragons hatch at the END.

The whole ASoIaF arc is about the return of Winter and the imminent invaion of the Others, and the Others had made their first appearance in the prologue of book one. Clearly magical creatures, they had started coming back long before the dragons were reborn, and there had been some references to how the Magic ebbed and waned parallel to the strength of the long winter cycles, and THIS winter is supposedly going to be the worst in ages.

The Others came back because the Wildings dug them up looking for the Horn of Winter. Which may very well have triggered the start of the winter. It is explicity stated that Wildfire becomes easier to make when dragons are alive in the world.

Where does it say that magic started coming back into the world at the beginning of the series? Others already existed, they were just buried and, possibly, fading when they got dug up. The Wildings might not have even had much trouble with them till the dragons were reborn which made them stronger because of the magic coming back. The book constantly hints that dragons are the source of magic in the world and there isn't any substantive evidence otherwise.

[Faltigoth]

But, here is food for thought, is the Horn of Winter something we have already seen?

Somewhere it is described almost exactly like the horn Euron has his man blow at the Kingsmoot; I can't think of the references right now but they are described as almost one and the same. Either Mance Rayder describes it, or Old Nan. Euron says his horn controls dragons; the horn of winter is supposed to control giants (and, incidentally, blow up the Wall). An interesting coincidence, regardless.

Or is it the horn that got dug up by Ghost, that Jon sent with Samwell to Oldtown? Whatever the case, I bet it is something we see before its all said and done.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Yeah, I always saw the Horn of Winter as the one Ghost dug up. This little broken thing that you would never expect.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

But, here is food for thought, is the Horn of Winter something we have already seen?

Somewhere it is described almost exactly like the horn Euron has his man blow at the Kingsmoot; I can't think of the references right now but they are described as almost one and the same. Either Mance Rayder describes it, or Old Nan. Euron says his horn controls dragons; the horn of winter is supposed to control giants (and, incidentally, blow up the Wall). An interesting coincidence, regardless.

Or is it the horn that got dug up by Ghost, that Jon sent with Samwell to Oldtown? Whatever the case, I bet it is something we see before its all said and done.

It's the giant horn in Mance's tent when Jon gets sent out to assasinate him. We actually see it from a PoV character, presumably Jon has it squirrelled away somewhere now. Or Stannis does.