A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers) - Page 2

Khorum · 10-25-2006, 02:07 PM

Yeah, Jaime killed Aerys pretty much because Aerys deserved it. Jaime went on to recount how he could barely suppress his disgust when Ned's father and brother were murdered by Aerys, how Aerys later elevated Jaime to the elite king's guard only to spite Lannister by denying Tywin his golden boy heir (Jaime thought it was an honor at the time, since he was the youngest ever to join the order, but it also required him to take vows never to marry or hold titles, much like the night watch).

Despite this, Jaime was MORE than glad to take the vows and sign away his future because it lets him hang out in King's Landing and presumably continue shtupping Cersei, which he had been unable to do since he stayed in Casterly Rock while Tywin brought Cersei to court hoping to marry her off to Rhaegar.

When Aerys heard that his vassals and the people basically regarded Tywin Lannister as the de facto king (as he was agreed to be the best Hand ever), Aerys went batshit and married Rhaegar over to his Dornish allies, which miffed Tywin, then Aerys promptly knighted Jaime, leaving Tywin with Tyrion as his only potential heir. This was when Tywin left the service of the king, dragged his household and Cersei back to Casterly Rock, and eventually sided with Robert Baratheon.

Meanwhile, Jaime had to stay with this king, who not only rejected his beloved Cersei, but also pissed off his whole household and also condemned him to a lifetime of watching Targaryen cruelty and excess. When the opportunity came to express his dissatisfaction with Aerys, Jaime cut his throat and waited for Ned on the iron throne.

Faltigoth · 10-25-2006, 02:58 PM

The funny thing about Tywin's service as hand is that Varys alludes to the Hand having tunnels built to the brothels in King's Landing from the Tower of the Hand -- and that Hand being none other than Tywin Lannister, whose disdain for Tyrion's whores ended up getting him a crossbow bolt to the gut while on the shitter.

Interesting to think of the ramifications of that!

Teger · 10-25-2006, 03:48 PM

The whol deal with Jaime and his real raesons for killing Aerys is that it's ironic that he's criticized for the one 'good' act he did.

Anyway, I think it's really interesting to speculate who's going to inherit the Lannister estate, with Jaime unable, Tywin dead and Tyrion fled it falls to Tywin's brother, Kevan. Yet, after Kevan, who does it go to? One of Kevan's two sons was lost during the riots in King's Landing in Book 2, and his other is now a fanatical priest-warrior who renounced his holdings and title. Where will Cersei figure into this? Also to note is that there were huge losses among the lesser Lannister lordlings in the war - including even those who married into Northern families (the Frys).

Edit: Now that I think about it, what if it falls to Tommen? If Tommen is finally exposed as the son of an incest and he loses his claim to the throne (perhaps to Danaerys when she returns as an usurper anyway), will he become the Lord of Casterly Rock? It's interesting to speculate that UPON Danaerys return, perhaps Tommen will agree to give up his throne (or Tyrion, speaking for him, as a favorite uncle), for the claim to the ancsetral lands. End edit.

Tywin hated Tyrion lying with whores because it illuminated a flaw he felt within himself, and I really doubt Tyrion is anything but pure-blood Lannister -- people saw his mother give birth to him and die.

About the speculation of Rhaegar and the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard would guard him (and his offspring) regardless of his actions. Jaime recalls a speech from the leader of the Kingsguard during Aerys reign (was it Dayne? I forget), in which he's told that their job is not to judge, but to guard. With Rhaeger dead their duty falls to guarding the heir to the kingdom - Jon, the only surviving Tangaeryn. This would explain why they fight Ned and his retinue even though the war is over and the King and his son are both dead.

Just other things to note/correct in the thread:

The Night's Watch swears to abstinence as well as not holding any lands and not marrying. Remember when Jon wants to join the watch and asks Benjen Stark if he can, Benjen lectures him about not joining as a virgin: "he doesn't know what he's giving up." The trade at Mole's Town is known but unknown; I think minor faltering is expected of the troops. Another thing to recall is Mance Rayder lay with a wilding woman and was accepted back into the watch, he only left because of his inability to marry her and to have children that bear his name and own land.

Stannis is still at the wall and STILL needs the blood of a King to complete his spell - and I think that's gonna be Jon, either as brother (and possible heir?) to the "King in the North", or as Rhaeger's lost child (legimitate heir to the Kingdom).

Jadaki · 10-25-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teger

Stannis is still at the wall and STILL needs the blood of a King to complete his spell - and I think that's gonna be Jon, either as brother (and possible heir?) to the "King in the North", or as Rhaeger's lost child (legimitate heir to the Kingdom).

That assumes that he is Rhaegars child, not Ned's, and that Stannis would be aware of it. I'm a believer in Jon being Rhaegars son at this point, but I don't see how Stannis could possibly know about it. Either way he is at least Ned's nephew and bears a likeness to him (or at least Ned's sister) so I think to the average observer he would be nothing more than Ned's bastard.

Khorum · 10-25-2006, 05:21 PM

I _REALLY_ like Stannis, he's the only morally inambiguous character in the whole series and it's great how his story one unending carnival of frustration. I doubt Stannis or Melisandre will get to the point where they'd sacrifice Jon forcibly, but it wouldn't surprise me if Jon turns on THEM first to assert his authority as lord commander.

I have a sinking suspicion that Jon's leadership 'moment' is how he confronts and manages Stannis and Melisandre's.

Aulirophile · 10-25-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teger

The Night's Watch swears to abstinence as well as not holding any lands and not marrying.

Quote:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Nothing about abstinence in there, sorry. Sex might be discouraged because it can lead to fathering children, but that is the only reason. Their vows do not specifically prohibit sex.

Faltigoth · 10-25-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teger

About the speculation of Rhaegar and the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard would guard him (and his offspring) regardless of his actions. Jaime recalls a speech from the leader of the Kingsguard during Aerys reign (was it Dayne? I forget), in which he's told that their job is not to judge, but to guard. With Rhaeger dead their duty falls to guarding the heir to the kingdom - Jon, the only surviving Tangaeryn. This would explain why they fight Ned and his retinue even though the war is over and the King and his son are both dead.

The issue with that was, they were guarding Lyanna long before Rhaegar was dead. Or Aerys. Remember Eddard's dream of them in the Game of Thrones, "I looked for you on the Trident, and you were not there...etc etc" They left the king alone with Lannister, took no part in the rebellion, and guarded what amounts to a noble mistress with a bastard child -- not a true heir by the laws of Westeros -- while Rhaegar's wife and kids got raped and killed by Gregor Clegane. Jon Snow, if indeed he is Lyanna's kid, had no more legal claim to the throne than Robert Baratheon at the time of the rebellion, considering Rhaegar had a brother -- Viserys -- who would be heir to the Iron Throne after Rhaegar; and sister Dany was about to be born. (as far as I remember, she was born just after the sack of King's Landing)

That's why the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy is still so suspicious, they had absolutely no reason in the context of their vows and the tradition of the Kingsguard to be there, other than Rhaegar telling them to; there was something terribly important there, for the the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne, and Oswell Whent to be out in the middle of nowhere while the people they were sworn to protect were in mortal danger.

Rhaegar had to have convinced them that his bastard was more important than the kingdom.

Grimmlokk · 10-26-2006, 01:53 AM

Yeah that's pretty much how I view it. On top of the fact that they all respected Rhaegar and despised Aerys(everyone did).

The one thing for me that throws a wrench in the whole R+T=J theory is the fact it's become so widely accepted. It's almost too obvious now, and i never expect anything too obvious from this series. Martin could change it up just to throw everyone off.

The other fun thing to discuss that is never clearly stated but seems fairly obvious in the series is Renly and Loras being gay homosexuals=) Someone on the I&F board put together a huge argument for it with tons of quotes once. Pretty solid stuff.

Jadaki · 10-26-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimmlokk

gay homosexuals

Can you be a non-gay homosexual?

I always thought of Loras as the second coming of Jamie, and figured he was probably banging Margery.

Faltigoth · 10-26-2006, 08:01 AM

Oh no Jadaki, read the fine print...Loras was definitely banging someone, but it was in the back door, not the front.

This hints are spiced throughout -- there's a few big ones in Clash of Kings, when Catelyn is at Renly's camp; later on somewhere (either Storm of Swords or Feast for Crows) other people are talking about Loras' penchant for buggery; and Jaime makes a crack to him straight up in AFfC when he meets with every member of the Kingsguard. Plus the way he gets when someone mentions Renly around him...yep, he is gay as they come.

speaking of Loras, does anyone else think that the reports of him being mostly dead are false? I get the impression that towards the end of AFfC, alot of the information coming into Cersei's bullshit small council was mostly completely wrong/off base, and I think Loras might be just fine and dandy somewhere. Its going to be brutal when the Tyrells get to Kings Landing and pretty much take over the throne through Margaery/Tommen.

you have to feel bad for Margaery too, married like three times before the age of 16, without even getting properly laid.

Khorum · 10-26-2006, 09:37 AM

I'm pretty sure Loras will pop up right around Highgarden just when the Greyjoys and their Kraken banner come sailing upriver. Remember, aFfC ended on that note, with the Shield Islands falling to Theon's uncle, and greyjoy troops murdering and raping noblewomen in preparation to sailing up the mander, the first big city along the Mander happens to be highgarden.

Soon as Loras gets word of the Greyjoy invasion, I've no doubt he'd abandon his siege of Dragonstone keep and head home to protect his family's seat (and Margaery).

Now, I agree with a previous poster that Loras may exactly be a younger Jaime, complete with the sister-fucking part. It's entirely conceivable that he's been taking it up the ass too, but it's the same scenario with him and Jaime, his beloved sister gets shipped to King's Landing to marry, and in order to maintain a comfortable distance from her for illicit boinkings, he signs up for the kingsguard. Soon as he hears that she's in trouble, the facade is off, he either fakes his death or just plain runs off to save margaery and highgarden itself.

It's a pretty good setup too, the parallel becomes poignant when Jaime comes home to become Cersei's champion (although he's not terribly happy about it and he's pretty sure he's gotta get owned) and runs into a disguised Loras, who's there to rescue Margaery, they have similar motivations but are at different ends of their relationships with their respective manipulative sisters: Loras still young and in love, and Jaime jaded after learning what and who Cersei has been doing.

Teger · 10-26-2006, 10:17 AM

Wait wait wait, I know Loras might be close to his sister but I seriously doubt there's incest. He was definitly in love with Renly, but I definitely agree that he'll pop up to save his sister and let Cersei rot. I really don't like the whole new religion plotline/fanaticism thing, it seemed out of the blue and almot forced, especially becuase it was told from the POVs of my least favorite characters.

Khorum · 10-26-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teger

Wait wait wait, I know Loras might be close to his sister but I seriously doubt there's incest. He was definitly in love with Renly, but I definitely agree that he'll pop up to save his sister and let Cersei rot. I really don't like the whole new religion plotline/fanaticism thing, it seemed out of the blue and almot forced, especially becuase it was told from the POVs of my least favorite characters.

I'm not sure I like the religion angle, but I can't say it's forced. It's been on a slow broil since book2, with the red priests and melisandre openly challenging the accepted faith of the septons. The rise of the new religious militant order was a setup from early book three, with that dwarvish monk who was mistaken for tyrion and murdered by Cersei's thugs.

With coldhands, the Reed kids and Bran representing the old weirwood faith, Melisandre and stannis representing the fire god of Braavos, I'd gotten the feeling that religion was gonna be a bigger and bigger component of the story eventually, I just never suspected it would blindside Cersei like that

I bet not even littlefinger wouldve suspected that :P Although I agree with an earlier poster and suspect that Varys had a hand it the whole thing.

The best religious angle is in aFfC, with Arya's POV among the Faceless Men, who apparently are the multi-denominational clergy of universal destruction.

Loras loved Renly as much as anyone else, and Brienne mentioned that Loras was just another worshipper, and like I said, I don't doubt that Loras might even swing both ways. But there's no doubt he has an unhealthy attachment to Margaery, beyond the political dimension of her marriage.

Teger · 10-26-2006, 10:46 AM

I shoulda clarified, I like the clash of the older religions/fire religion/the idol worshipping one, it's just that this whole new revolutionary grassroots religious order bugs me. Especially since its from fucking Cersei's POV. Anyway, I really don't see Loras as sleeping with his sister, although yea they have a pretty creepy relationship. Here's another thing that hasn't been discussed, what's gonna happen to Cersei's daughter? I think the Dornes are incredibly badass, and with her wounded and in their hands, will she be unable to be used to claim the throne?

Grimmlokk · 10-26-2006, 10:59 AM

Loras is not banging his sister. He was *definately* Renly's lover. There is just an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence(about all you'll get in these books before anything is confirmed 100%). Off the top of my head(may not have stuff 100% accurate).

Sandor calls him "knight of posies" or some such, an obvious gay knock.

When Loras is talking to I think Jaime at one point he mentions with Renly "we would.......pray...together." And the way it's said is definately meant to imply something else.

The way he always personally helped Renly dress.

Various and sundry mentions of how much Renly cares about his looks and fashion.

Rainbow Guard? HELLOOOO! =D

The way Loras went fucking apeshit when he found Renly dead, to the point of killing multiple innocent people. Sort of the reaction you'd have to a dead lover, not just someone you respected.

There's more, but I haven't read the 1st three in awhile.

Quote:

It's a pretty good setup too, the parallel becomes poignant when Jaime comes home to become Cersei's champion (although he's not terribly happy about it and he's pretty sure he's gotta get owned)

Jaime made it pretty clear at the end of AFFC that he was not in fact rushing back to save Cersei. In fact I'm fairly certain her champion is alread in King's Landing, and will almost assuredly defeat anyone they put in front of him. I'm of course speaking of Gregor Clegane. Or rather, the reanimated corpse of Gregor Clegane through Qyburn's dark arts. Which will lead to all sorts of fun new stuff with the religious people of course.

I liked the way Martell revealed that he's been plotting to bring back teh Targaryen's for years and years and was going to marry his daughter to Viserys to make her queen.

10-25-2006, 03:48 PM	#18 (permalink)
Teger Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 558 -2 Internets	The whol deal with Jaime and his real raesons for killing Aerys is that it's ironic that he's criticized for the one 'good' act he did. Anyway, I think it's really interesting to speculate who's going to inherit the Lannister estate, with Jaime unable, Tywin dead and Tyrion fled it falls to Tywin's brother, Kevan. Yet, after Kevan, who does it go to? One of Kevan's two sons was lost during the riots in King's Landing in Book 2, and his other is now a fanatical priest-warrior who renounced his holdings and title. Where will Cersei figure into this? Also to note is that there were huge losses among the lesser Lannister lordlings in the war - including even those who married into Northern families (the Frys). Edit: Now that I think about it, what if it falls to Tommen? If Tommen is finally exposed as the son of an incest and he loses his claim to the throne (perhaps to Danaerys when she returns as an usurper anyway), will he become the Lord of Casterly Rock? It's interesting to speculate that UPON Danaerys return, perhaps Tommen will agree to give up his throne (or Tyrion, speaking for him, as a favorite uncle), for the claim to the ancsetral lands. End edit. Tywin hated Tyrion lying with whores because it illuminated a flaw he felt within himself, and I really doubt Tyrion is anything but pure-blood Lannister -- people saw his mother give birth to him and die. About the speculation of Rhaegar and the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard would guard him (and his offspring) regardless of his actions. Jaime recalls a speech from the leader of the Kingsguard during Aerys reign (was it Dayne? I forget), in which he's told that their job is not to judge, but to guard. With Rhaeger dead their duty falls to guarding the heir to the kingdom - Jon, the only surviving Tangaeryn. This would explain why they fight Ned and his retinue even though the war is over and the King and his son are both dead. Just other things to note/correct in the thread: The Night's Watch swears to abstinence as well as not holding any lands and not marrying. Remember when Jon wants to join the watch and asks Benjen Stark if he can, Benjen lectures him about not joining as a virgin: "he doesn't know what he's giving up." The trade at Mole's Town is known but unknown; I think minor faltering is expected of the troops. Another thing to recall is Mance Rayder lay with a wilding woman and was accepted back into the watch, he only left because of his inability to marry her and to have children that bear his name and own land. Stannis is still at the wall and STILL needs the blood of a King to complete his spell - and I think that's gonna be Jon, either as brother (and possible heir?) to the "King in the North", or as Rhaeger's lost child (legimitate heir to the Kingdom). Last edited by Teger : 10-25-2006 at 03:52 PM.

10-26-2006, 01:53 AM	#23 (permalink)
Grimmlokk Unlicensed Vaginoplasty Surgeon Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,248 +6 Internets	Yeah that's pretty much how I view it. On top of the fact that they all respected Rhaegar and despised Aerys(everyone did). The one thing for me that throws a wrench in the whole R+T=J theory is the fact it's become so widely accepted. It's almost too obvious now, and i never expect anything too obvious from this series. Martin could change it up just to throw everyone off. The other fun thing to discuss that is never clearly stated but seems fairly obvious in the series is Renly and Loras being gay homosexuals=) Someone on the I&F board put together a huge argument for it with tons of quotes once. Pretty solid stuff. __________________ "The eyes are the groin of the face"

10-26-2006, 09:37 AM	#26 (permalink)
Khorum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,992 -16 Internets	I'm pretty sure Loras will pop up right around Highgarden just when the Greyjoys and their Kraken banner come sailing upriver. Remember, aFfC ended on that note, with the Shield Islands falling to Theon's uncle, and greyjoy troops murdering and raping noblewomen in preparation to sailing up the mander, the first big city along the Mander happens to be highgarden. Soon as Loras gets word of the Greyjoy invasion, I've no doubt he'd abandon his siege of Dragonstone keep and head home to protect his family's seat (and Margaery). Now, I agree with a previous poster that Loras may exactly be a younger Jaime, complete with the sister-fucking part. It's entirely conceivable that he's been taking it up the ass too, but it's the same scenario with him and Jaime, his beloved sister gets shipped to King's Landing to marry, and in order to maintain a comfortable distance from her for illicit boinkings, he signs up for the kingsguard. Soon as he hears that she's in trouble, the facade is off, he either fakes his death or just plain runs off to save margaery and highgarden itself. It's a pretty good setup too, the parallel becomes poignant when Jaime comes home to become Cersei's champion (although he's not terribly happy about it and he's pretty sure he's gotta get owned) and runs into a disguised Loras, who's there to rescue Margaery, they have similar motivations but are at different ends of their relationships with their respective manipulative sisters: Loras still young and in love, and Jaime jaded after learning what and who Cersei has been doing. Last edited by Khorum : 10-26-2006 at 09:51 AM.

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10-25-2006, 02:07 PM	#16 (permalink)
Khorum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,992 -16 Internets	Yeah, Jaime killed Aerys pretty much because Aerys deserved it. Jaime went on to recount how he could barely suppress his disgust when Ned's father and brother were murdered by Aerys, how Aerys later elevated Jaime to the elite king's guard only to spite Lannister by denying Tywin his golden boy heir (Jaime thought it was an honor at the time, since he was the youngest ever to join the order, but it also required him to take vows never to marry or hold titles, much like the night watch). Despite this, Jaime was MORE than glad to take the vows and sign away his future because it lets him hang out in King's Landing and presumably continue shtupping Cersei, which he had been unable to do since he stayed in Casterly Rock while Tywin brought Cersei to court hoping to marry her off to Rhaegar. When Aerys heard that his vassals and the people basically regarded Tywin Lannister as the de facto king (as he was agreed to be the best Hand ever), Aerys went batshit and married Rhaegar over to his Dornish allies, which miffed Tywin, then Aerys promptly knighted Jaime, leaving Tywin with Tyrion as his only potential heir. This was when Tywin left the service of the king, dragged his household and Cersei back to Casterly Rock, and eventually sided with Robert Baratheon. Meanwhile, Jaime had to stay with this king, who not only rejected his beloved Cersei, but also pissed off his whole household and also condemned him to a lifetime of watching Targaryen cruelty and excess. When the opportunity came to express his dissatisfaction with Aerys, Jaime cut his throat and waited for Ned on the iron throne.

10-25-2006, 02:58 PM	#17 (permalink)
Faltigoth Army Football forever!! Who needs wins, anyway?!? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 781 +0 Internets	The funny thing about Tywin's service as hand is that Varys alludes to the Hand having tunnels built to the brothels in King's Landing from the Tower of the Hand -- and that Hand being none other than Tywin Lannister, whose disdain for Tyrion's whores ended up getting him a crossbow bolt to the gut while on the shitter. Interesting to think of the ramifications of that!

10-25-2006, 05:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
Khorum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,992 -16 Internets	I _REALLY_ like Stannis, he's the only morally inambiguous character in the whole series and it's great how his story one unending carnival of frustration. I doubt Stannis or Melisandre will get to the point where they'd sacrifice Jon forcibly, but it wouldn't surprise me if Jon turns on THEM first to assert his authority as lord commander. I have a sinking suspicion that Jon's leadership 'moment' is how he confronts and manages Stannis and Melisandre's.

10-26-2006, 08:01 AM	#25 (permalink)
Faltigoth Army Football forever!! Who needs wins, anyway?!? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 781 +0 Internets	Oh no Jadaki, read the fine print...Loras was definitely banging someone, but it was in the back door, not the front. This hints are spiced throughout -- there's a few big ones in Clash of Kings, when Catelyn is at Renly's camp; later on somewhere (either Storm of Swords or Feast for Crows) other people are talking about Loras' penchant for buggery; and Jaime makes a crack to him straight up in AFfC when he meets with every member of the Kingsguard. Plus the way he gets when someone mentions Renly around him...yep, he is gay as they come. speaking of Loras, does anyone else think that the reports of him being mostly dead are false? I get the impression that towards the end of AFfC, alot of the information coming into Cersei's bullshit small council was mostly completely wrong/off base, and I think Loras might be just fine and dandy somewhere. Its going to be brutal when the Tyrells get to Kings Landing and pretty much take over the throne through Margaery/Tommen. you have to feel bad for Margaery too, married like three times before the age of 16, without even getting properly laid.

10-26-2006, 10:17 AM	#27 (permalink)
Teger Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 558 -2 Internets	Wait wait wait, I know Loras might be close to his sister but I seriously doubt there's incest. He was definitly in love with Renly, but I definitely agree that he'll pop up to save his sister and let Cersei rot. I really don't like the whole new religion plotline/fanaticism thing, it seemed out of the blue and almot forced, especially becuase it was told from the POVs of my least favorite characters.

10-26-2006, 10:46 AM	#29 (permalink)
Teger Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 558 -2 Internets	I shoulda clarified, I like the clash of the older religions/fire religion/the idol worshipping one, it's just that this whole new revolutionary grassroots religious order bugs me. Especially since its from fucking Cersei's POV. Anyway, I really don't see Loras as sleeping with his sister, although yea they have a pretty creepy relationship. Here's another thing that hasn't been discussed, what's gonna happen to Cersei's daughter? I think the Dornes are incredibly badass, and with her wounded and in their hands, will she be unable to be used to claim the throne?