Don't Go to Law School

Havelock · 11-08-2009, 09:05 PM

I saw this the other day (it's an article about the sharp increase in a law school's applications) and felt the urgent need to grab young people by the lapels and harangue them. Since I don't know that many people in the appropriate age range (apart from my paralegals, most of whom have opted not to go to law school) I thought I might offer some advice to people here.

If you are looking for something to do for the next three years to wait out the economy, you are about to make a very big mistake. If you are finishing up college and not sure what you want to do, you are making a terrible decision. The legal economy sucks bigtime right now, with loads of very talented kids going to schools better than most people can hope for struggling to find summer employment or future offers. God help the students at lower tier schools when people at NYU can't find work. And while the economy will turn around at some point, there is a massive glut of lawyers and it's only getting worse.

There's also the tremendous debt load associated with law school. Thanks to our whore Congress and the hard work of industry lobbyists, you can't even discharge your student loans through bankruptcy. So you're jumping into a bad job market with a $150,000 albatross around your neck. Even with a substantial salary, that loan load makes a difference. And there are only so many biglaw jobs to go around.

Finally, and speaking of biglaw, even if you do land one of those gigs, most people don't like them. I was talking with some friends in anticipation of our class reunion and they mentioned that I am the only person they know from law school who is happy and likes his job. Not coincidentally, I don't work at a firm. I do know one firm lawyer who really likes his gig, and another who doesn't hate it, but most people are pretty miserable. The hours are crazy long, the work is boring, and many of the people you work with are unhappy and may be asshats. You have essentially no autonomy in your life. The money is good, but the money's good elsewhere, too, and elsewhere can be more spiritually fulfilling.

And for those who think that you're going to run off and do something noble and low-paying with your law degree, better rethink that. Something like 90% of my law school class, when surveyed at the start of 1L year, said they wanted to work in public interest law. Something like 5% of the class ultimately did.

Now there are a few situations that would certainly mitigate the reasons not to go to law school. If you can get a full scholarship at a decent school, go for it. If you have a burning desire to be a lawyer, law school is a fairly important step in realizing that dream. And if your parents are loaded and want to send you to law school to avoid inflicting you on the rest of the world, then by all means take that money and spend three more years drunk and lazy. But absent circumstances like those, you probably shouldn't go to law school.

I'm glad I went to law school and I enjoy the hell out of my job. But I get paid quite a bit less than my classmates, and my job was tough to get then and is even tougher to get now. If you're thinking about law school but aren't sure it's what you want to do, just don't do it. Tough out the bad economy on a friend's couch or something, avoid a massive debt load, and do something enjoyable for yourself and productive for society.

This concludes the public service announcement.

Azrayne · 11-08-2009, 09:23 PM

I've never spoken to someone who went into law and is happy with their decision. At best, most of them tolerate it because of the high income lifestyle it affords. Personally, it looks like one of the most soul destroying fields one could go into.

Lenaldo · 11-08-2009, 09:24 PM

I'm not in a law school but a friend with to UW-SL(which I think is top 20) and can not find a job. He is in the top 5% of this class too.

From what I have heard/read the amount of law school graduates has finally spiraled out of control. It is hard to imagine but the united states may have finally saturated itself with lawyers - its a glorious thing really.

Cad · 11-08-2009, 09:41 PM

What Havelock said isn't wrong but I'd be really careful about getting your legal news from AboveTheLaw.. it's a great tabloid but when things were good they spun everything as "not good enough!" to stir up headlines and now that things are bad (and they are bad) they spin everything as "YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN" and "BIGLAW IS DOOMED" to stir up headlines.

Things are bad, they might get worse, and it can be a very taxing career choice both mentally and physically in terms of stress and hours. If they would just shut down the bottom 100 law schools, prevent any more from being accredited and limit class sizes (like the AMA does for med schools) the problem would fix itself within a generation.

Rune · 11-08-2009, 11:59 PM

Both my parents are lawyers. I read the book Happy Hour is for Amateurs by that "philadelphia lawyer" blogger and asked my dad some questions about the details to see if big law was really that awful. He just grimaced.

I went to medical school instead. There are about five lawyers in my class. I think that says all you need to know.

Uriel · 11-09-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havelock

You have essentially no autonomy in your life.

I think that in this day and age, many different career fields expect you to be informed and in contact through email even when you're off the clock. This is especially true if you're seeking promotions and other opportunities.

Ortega · 11-09-2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel

I think that in this day and age, many different career fields expect you to be informed and in contact through email even when you're off the clock. This is especially true if you're seeking promotions and other opportunities.

Agreed. I'm a lowly IT intern trying to work my way into a permanent position, and I'm always on call/email. I love it though and wouldn't have it any other way.

k^M · 11-09-2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ortega

Agreed. I'm a lowly IT intern trying to work my way into a permanent position, and I'm always on call/email. I love it though and wouldn't have it any other way.

I had a 2 year gig doing this and ended up loving it at first, and hating it with fiery passion at the end. Really depends on your users, but I always got called at the worst times, and if I didn't answer I got yelled at despite the reason. Sex, shower, shitter, my boss was an asshole

Istros · 11-09-2009, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune

Both my parents are lawyers. I read the book Happy Hour is for Amateurs by that "philadelphia lawyer" blogger and asked my dad some questions about the details to see if big law was really that awful. He just grimaced.

I went to medical school instead. There are about five lawyers in my class. I think that says all you need to know.

you could always be worse off... i know of several grad students (in humanities, at an ivy league college) who quit the program for law school. as bad as it must be in legal profession, the job market in academia was already bad before the great repression, and now it's just terrible: way too many PhDs for very few positions, and professors not retiring because many can't simply afford to at the moment (at least in the way in which they had imagined their retirement); most colleges have already frozen or canceled job searches in almost all humanities departments. depressing stuff

Etoille · 11-09-2009, 08:03 AM

100% true.

And money AND job market is better in the field I'm in now than law ever will be - government side goes all the way up to GS 15 with an average of GS13 in around 5 years in the field.

Don't have no problems makin 100k/yr 5 years from now and HAVING to stay at 40 hrs a week not one minute more with free child care and government health insurance and not being tied to a blackberry. Sign me the fuck up.

The reason I'm ignoring the 2-3 calls a week from recruiters I get (not making this shit up its crazy) from the private sector is because I'm trying to get into government side. I had to tell a Booz Allen recruiter literally to stop calling me.

The one good part about my degree is that it auto qualifies me at GS 11 or 12 in some instances.

But I left a field where theres 10 jobseekers to every one job (law) and went into one where theres 4 jobs for every job seeker NOW - with half of the workforce set to retire over the next ten years. Hands fucking down the best decision I made in my professional life.

Clerica · 11-09-2009, 08:06 AM

Go to law school and live the life of Tucker Max!

Ortega · 11-09-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k^M

I had a 2 year gig doing this and ended up loving it at first, and hating it with fiery passion at the end. Really depends on your users, but I always got called at the worst times, and if I didn't answer I got yelled at despite the reason. Sex, shower, shitter, my boss was an asshole

Sounds like you just had a shitty job. I get massive overtime, free shit and all expenses paid. We may be acquiring another company in Dallas Texas that we will have to setup basically from scratch. My boss is awesome and I have been to his house for dinner several times

Eyashusa · 11-09-2009, 08:47 AM

I try to read the ABA Journal a couple times a week and the outlook is pretty bleak. I only know a couple people in law school right now; one has a job lined up with her dad's firm and the other is absolutely terrified of what's going to happen come May when he graduates.

I'm hoping, but not counting on, some sort of reform in the way law school/the profession in general is handled. Seems like a lot of people get really pissed at the ABA's inaction given the current scenario but maybe those are just the most vocal commenters on the website. I'm still planning on going back to school in 2012, and wanted law school, but I am thinking of just getting my PhD instead. Although from reading what Etoille has said in the past the JD is really overvalued and you can get a lot of jobs outside of law with it so I might just stick with law school.

Anyways its always interesting hearing people's opinions who are in the legal profession so keep it coming. If I'm still posting here in a couple years I'm sure I'll be sending some of you guys PMs with questions.

Etoille · 11-09-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyashusa

I try to read the ABA Journal a couple times a week and the outlook is pretty bleak. I only know a couple people in law school right now; one has a job lined up with her dad's firm and the other is absolutely terrified of what's going to happen come May when he graduates.

I'm hoping, but not counting on, some sort of reform in the way law school/the profession in general is handled. Seems like a lot of people get really pissed at the ABA's inaction given the current scenario but maybe those are just the most vocal commenters on the website. I'm still planning on going back to school in 2012, and wanted law school, but I am thinking of just getting my PhD instead. Although from reading what Etoille has said in the past the JD is really overvalued and you can get a lot of jobs outside of law with it so I might just stick with law school.

Anyways its always interesting hearing people's opinions who are in the legal profession so keep it coming. If I'm still posting here in a couple years I'm sure I'll be sending some of you guys PMs with questions.

You *can* get a lot of jobs outside of law - but you'll be competing against ppl with experience and all the other JD's who don't want to practice.

Unless you're getting a PhD in a hard science or like Havelock (well come to think of it me too I know I've said the same thing multiple times) said on a scholarship don't bother.

I got INSANELY lucky. First, the field I'm in is very regional. Its basically DC, TX, FL and parts of CA. Second, no one in this field wants to hire a JD because they think a JD will just leave for a lawyer job and this is to bide their time. Third, since its ENTIRELY OJT you basically have to convince a company to spend the time money and energy training you. It took me 8 months before the economic shit hit the fan to find a company that was willing to make that type of investment; less than 5% of jobs in the field are entry level and even entry level tend to still want 1-2 years if they can get it.

Really, Havelock and I promise. Its not that we know somethign you don't and are trying to keep you all out of the cool kids club. Its truly not fucking worth it.

Esp for you Eya. Unless you're going into crim or IP or transactional law you'll be so massively frustrated with Cook County Civil that you will want to kill yourself.

The ONLY area that is still good in the legal field imho is IP law.

James · 11-09-2009, 09:12 AM

I recommend people don't go to Law School if they don't want to be viewed as a scum sucking leech on society. Some people, however, are fine with that image.

11-08-2009, 09:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
Havelock Lead Farmer Join Date: May 2005 Location: DC Posts: 1,976	Don't Go to Law School I saw this the other day (it's an article about the sharp increase in a law school's applications) and felt the urgent need to grab young people by the lapels and harangue them. Since I don't know that many people in the appropriate age range (apart from my paralegals, most of whom have opted not to go to law school) I thought I might offer some advice to people here. If you are looking for something to do for the next three years to wait out the economy, you are about to make a very big mistake. If you are finishing up college and not sure what you want to do, you are making a terrible decision. The legal economy sucks bigtime right now, with loads of very talented kids going to schools better than most people can hope for struggling to find summer employment or future offers. God help the students at lower tier schools when people at NYU can't find work. And while the economy will turn around at some point, there is a massive glut of lawyers and it's only getting worse. There's also the tremendous debt load associated with law school. Thanks to our whore Congress and the hard work of industry lobbyists, you can't even discharge your student loans through bankruptcy. So you're jumping into a bad job market with a $150,000 albatross around your neck. Even with a substantial salary, that loan load makes a difference. And there are only so many biglaw jobs to go around. Finally, and speaking of biglaw, even if you do land one of those gigs, most people don't like them. I was talking with some friends in anticipation of our class reunion and they mentioned that I am the only person they know from law school who is happy and likes his job. Not coincidentally, I don't work at a firm. I do know one firm lawyer who really likes his gig, and another who doesn't hate it, but most people are pretty miserable. The hours are crazy long, the work is boring, and many of the people you work with are unhappy and may be asshats. You have essentially no autonomy in your life. The money is good, but the money's good elsewhere, too, and elsewhere can be more spiritually fulfilling. And for those who think that you're going to run off and do something noble and low-paying with your law degree, better rethink that. Something like 90% of my law school class, when surveyed at the start of 1L year, said they wanted to work in public interest law. Something like 5% of the class ultimately did. Now there are a few situations that would certainly mitigate the reasons not to go to law school. If you can get a full scholarship at a decent school, go for it. If you have a burning desire to be a lawyer, law school is a fairly important step in realizing that dream. And if your parents are loaded and want to send you to law school to avoid inflicting you on the rest of the world, then by all means take that money and spend three more years drunk and lazy. But absent circumstances like those, you probably shouldn't go to law school. I'm glad I went to law school and I enjoy the hell out of my job. But I get paid quite a bit less than my classmates, and my job was tough to get then and is even tougher to get now. If you're thinking about law school but aren't sure it's what you want to do, just don't do it. Tough out the bad economy on a friend's couch or something, avoid a massive debt load, and do something enjoyable for yourself and productive for society. This concludes the public service announcement.

11-08-2009, 11:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rune Bonafied Misanthrope Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ATX Posts: 1,047 +16 Internets	Both my parents are lawyers. I read the book Happy Hour is for Amateurs by that "philadelphia lawyer" blogger and asked my dad some questions about the details to see if big law was really that awful. He just grimaced. I went to medical school instead. There are about five lawyers in my class. I think that says all you need to know. __________________ Burning branches of synaptic fire surf the serotonin swells.

11-09-2009, 09:12 AM	#15 (permalink)
James You are just another normal! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,383	I recommend people don't go to Law School if they don't want to be viewed as a scum sucking leech on society. Some people, however, are fine with that image. __________________ Like a ship without an anchor, like a slave without a chain, just the thought of those sweet ladies sends a shiver through my veins. And I will go on shining, shining like brand new. I'll never look behind me, my troubles will be few. Goodbye stranger, it's been nice. Hope you find your paradise. Tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true. Goodbye Mary, goodbye Jane, will we ever meet again? Feel no sorrow, feel no shame. Come tomorrow, feel no pain.

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11-08-2009, 09:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Azrayne Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Awsome Posts: 2,722	I've never spoken to someone who went into law and is happy with their decision. At best, most of them tolerate it because of the high income lifestyle it affords. Personally, it looks like one of the most soul destroying fields one could go into.

11-08-2009, 09:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lenaldo Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,436 -21 Internets	I'm not in a law school but a friend with to UW-SL(which I think is top 20) and can not find a job. He is in the top 5% of this class too. From what I have heard/read the amount of law school graduates has finally spiraled out of control. It is hard to imagine but the united states may have finally saturated itself with lawyers - its a glorious thing really.

11-08-2009, 09:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
Cad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 6,674 -37 Internets	What Havelock said isn't wrong but I'd be really careful about getting your legal news from AboveTheLaw.. it's a great tabloid but when things were good they spun everything as "not good enough!" to stir up headlines and now that things are bad (and they are bad) they spin everything as "YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN" and "BIGLAW IS DOOMED" to stir up headlines. Things are bad, they might get worse, and it can be a very taxing career choice both mentally and physically in terms of stress and hours. If they would just shut down the bottom 100 law schools, prevent any more from being accredited and limit class sizes (like the AMA does for med schools) the problem would fix itself within a generation.

11-09-2009, 08:06 AM	#11 (permalink)
Clerica Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 159 +4 Internets	Go to law school and live the life of Tucker Max!

11-09-2009, 08:47 AM	#13 (permalink)
Eyashusa Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,305	I try to read the ABA Journal a couple times a week and the outlook is pretty bleak. I only know a couple people in law school right now; one has a job lined up with her dad's firm and the other is absolutely terrified of what's going to happen come May when he graduates. I'm hoping, but not counting on, some sort of reform in the way law school/the profession in general is handled. Seems like a lot of people get really pissed at the ABA's inaction given the current scenario but maybe those are just the most vocal commenters on the website. I'm still planning on going back to school in 2012, and wanted law school, but I am thinking of just getting my PhD instead. Although from reading what Etoille has said in the past the JD is really overvalued and you can get a lot of jobs outside of law with it so I might just stick with law school. Anyways its always interesting hearing people's opinions who are in the legal profession so keep it coming. If I'm still posting here in a couple years I'm sure I'll be sending some of you guys PMs with questions.