Going to the moon is now too ambitious

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Depending on the launch system, attaining low earth orbit is around 5-10k a pound. Geosynchronous orbit is about 40-50k a pound. Sending shit to Mars is probably double that, just in launch costs.

And propulsion is the reason those things cost so much. I say fuck NASA's budget for ~10 years, put the $20bil/yr or whatever it is into propulsion research until they increase the effectiveness of current propulsion tech by about 100%. Then a whole new spectrum of flights will be possible and economic.

[Erronius]

Originally Posted by Araxen

From this thread you can see people are perfectly fine with China taking the lead on space exploration and the US becoming #2.

Just few points here. Actual manned missions to "explore" are pointless; our automation and data collection abilities through unmanned craft have made manned missions obsolete, or nearly so. Part of this is the added cost and logistics of getting humans around in space and keeping them alive. We don't have to bring probes back, using unmanned vehicles reduces so many negative variables, and our technology is at the point where we should be able to gather as much data, if not in fact more, through unmanned means as compared to manned missions. The only reasons to send people are either A) to beat our chests with the accomplishment, or B) machines are incapable of a certain task and humans are needed. And to be frank, I don't think there are many situations were B) is all that common anymore, especially in regards to exploration itself. We see it in orbital maintenance/spacewalk/etc, but in regards to actual exploration? Meh.

Also, you say China will become #1 at space exploration...how so? Simply because we don't send a manned mission to Mars right now? That's ignoring everything from the multitude of unmanned probes to things like the Hubble. If we were to concentrate on continuing and improving our unmanned probes, R&D for future vehicles/tech/missions, and some improvement in payload delivery and orbital/lunar support sites, we'd likely still be miles ahead of China, unless you actually consider that one must have living humans on board a craft in order to consider it exploration. Yes, China is making great strides, but still, is a manned mission to Mars really what we need?

AFAIK China is still assessing the moon for the most part, I can't say as I've heard them express any plans for Mars in anything like the near future. I think they have the right approach in that regard, we have yet to outline any actual concrete plans for harvesting or exploitation of resources anywhere near the Earth itself. Honestly, fuck a manned mission to Mars, when China is already planning on mining the moon (helium-3 and iron). IMHO a manned mission to Mars is putting the carriage before the horse, so to speak. We are also behind in our infrastructure and heavy-lift capability, both things I think we should address before we go gallivanting off to Mars.

[Rune]

Originally Posted by Daelos

I'm a big a space geek as they come, have been chain-reading science fiction since I was 10 years old and married an astrophycisist, but keeping people alive trumps sending people to space right now.

Use that can do attitude to ensure you achieve a population of healthy individuals, where families and businesses don't go bankrupt because daddy gets cancer, and you will experience a rise in productivity and a massive economic boost.

Use that as the booster rocket to channel resources back into space.

The federal budget is not a zero sum proposition. It's not like you can't reform healthcare AND give NASA what it needs to develop more tech. I really don't even think they are related.

Besides, if we focus all of our resources on solving the problems of today we will be fucked tomorrow. As far as spending money on foreign aid rather than space travel - People have been starving and dying since the beginning of time. That's life. You can't save everybody. The worst mistake you can make is to wait until everything is perfect, that will never come. You have to do what you can with what you have, and always keep your mind on the future.

Anyone who has read up on their astronomy or sci fi knows there is a chance the day will come when we will collectively, as a race, go "shit, we really should have gotten on the ball about space travel" but it will be too late.

On the long list of shit the federal government pays for I think we can excuse the adding a couple hundred more scientists / engineers their tiny fucking salaries.

[ChewieTobbacca]

It's not like health care doesn't benefit from the space race. I bet the technology we gained from the 50's and 60's from the space race have provided advances that have helped plenty of people live longer than they otherwise would have...

If we're so worried about depleting resources on this planet, let's get going to other ones damnit!

[Elerion]

Putting men on the moon seems pointless. Focusing that effort on stuff like robotics, propulsion, solar power and biodome ("grow stuff in space") technology seems far more efficient if we're interested in that whole "go live in space" thing.



Speaking of which, does anyone know how far away we are from having self-sustained orbiting stations? I guess at this point we still need to bring spare parts and food. Anything else that can't be done on-station?

[Valishar]

I don't know if this would be a precursor to a lunar base or not. I'm not even sure what the benefits of a lunar base would be other than in astronomy and space exploration. I know the dark side of the moon has basically perfect conditions for telescopes, and the moon itself is a ideal place to launch spacecraft since the gravity demands are much lower. Like, for example, a space elevator isn't possible on earth with current technology, but on the moon we could build one with current materials. Also, I guess the fact that you have a complete visual of the earth instead of having to patch one up with multiple satellite images might be helpful as well.

Still I'm not sure what other commercial or industrial advantages the moon has other than sort of a space port.

[Al Capwn]

Originally Posted by Erronius

Besides, who else is competing with us for Mars? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

That's right, no one. It's barely a gleam in anyones eye at this point, so why is there some rush now? We should be conservative at this point and plan ahead for the next 20 or 30 years, so should a mission to Mars suddenly become important to our children, they can much more easily and cheaply take up the challenge thanks to groundwork done today.

No shit dickhead, my argument was NOT geared towards Mars specifically or even the moon per say. It was more an overall pus for progress that could be hastened by possibilities in space exploration as a whole. It was not said in my post (though I should have written so), that we should start taking steps today, so tomorrow it will be an even more realistic possibility.

And I also never said we should be first to Mars, who the fuck does care, you're right, no one. Nor do I. But still I see no wrong with planning ahead today for the future. But I still stand by my opinion that Americans refuse to look past next week because they're ignorant.

[Requiem]

If I was supreme ruler of the Earth, 10% of the world's annual resources would go toward the goal of getting off of this rock, and when we were a science-fiction level civilization inside of 75 years, all of you dumbfucks whining about your pedantic little problems that can now be solved with the push of a button would shut the fuck up about where that money could have gone. It's retarded that so little money goes into this.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Requiem

If I was supreme ruler of the Earth, 10% of the world's annual resources would go toward the goal of getting off of this rock, and when we were a science-fiction level civilization inside of 75 years, all of you dumbfucks whining about your pedantic little problems that can now be solved with the push of a button would shut the fuck up about where that money could have gone. It's retarded that so little money goes into this.

No come on lets all work to feed starving people. The HUMANITY!

[Fender]

Seems a bit silly to try and project the budget for that many years...

The United States Congress may often seem like an incompetent, corrupt, indecisive national disgrace...but by God they can deftly spend tons of money to wave the flag and defend our national pride!

I have a feeling that a Chinese moon landing or Mars program would result in NASA's budget suddenly getting healthy, substantive domestic issues be damned. They'd have the public's attention at the very least.

Anyway, shouldn't we be showering the solar system with robots instead of trying to do manned flight on a shoestring budget?

I know that not every robot is going to defy expectations like the Mars rovers but we could land robots on a hell of a lot more places that we can even think about sending people.

[Astrocreep]

unless someone has inside information this planet is a sitting target for any cataclysm outer space has to offer. the movie Armageddon was a pipe dream. we currently have no realistic plan if an asteroid or whatever wants to come along and fuck our shit up royally. people piss their beds at night and worry someone is using evil gasoline to power their cars while right now a deadly earth destroying rock is hurtling its way towards our planet. we dont know when but its inevitable to happen unless we do someting starting now. if it means colonizing other planets or setting up space outposts around the solar system to monitor whats coming in then so be it. fucking healthcare and the internet will not stop our impending doom.

[chaos]

I can't believe that I'm actually reading this shit about the space program. One of the most important advances in human history, and it's not worth it because it might cost some money. Mind-bottling.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by chaos

Mind-bottling.

Spending that money on education instead has clearly worked.

[Haus]

So essentially it's not that they discovered water on Mars. What they need is a press conference officially announcing that they discovered OIL on Mars and it's a done deal.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by brekk

Spending that money on education instead has clearly worked.

You're so cool.

Blades of Glory (2007) - Memorable quotes

It was kind of a joke, but thanks.