Going to the moon is now too ambitious

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Fog

I think this is the sore point. You have this ideological faith that government has a moral purpose, and if government sticks to this particular small role, and private industry does its thing, everything will just click into place and we will be in the best possible world. I don't think most people share this faith. I personally would rather see government do anything that seems practical to improve society in general. I don't see any actual argument coming from you on this regard besides "no, you're wrong."

This is going to toss the thread far off course, but since you asked:

I don't think the above will lead to some kind of utopia, as you seem to insinuate I do. It's like this: I think murder is wrong; presumably you do too. If I murdered your mother I don't think you'd hesitate to declare my act to be unjust. Not just inexpedient, but unjust. Am I on the money so far? Now if it's wrong -- morally wrong -- for me to kill your mother, why would it be just for a group of people styling themselves a government to do the same. What if they did it in order to "improve society in general"? After all, your mother's old and she consumes a lot of resources. Better, is it not, to get rid of her so that those who are more productive can better thrive and better contribute to our harmonious society. If you disagree with this, WHY do you disagree with this? Does it just feel wrong to you? Or can you sense both the immorality and the danger in vesting such awesome and terrible power in a group of humans, frail as the rest of us?

Just as murder is wrong, so, to a lesser degree is theft wrong. If I steal your wallet you rightly perceive that I have wronged you. It's not merely that the costs outweigh the benefits, rendering it an impractical action; it's prima facie wrong for me to steal your wallet. After all, it's yours. Again, just as it's wrong for me to steal your wallet, so too is it wrong for a group of people to steal your wallet (read: taxation). By what right can they claim your property as their own? You might say that you consent to their confiscation, but what of the person who doesn't. What moral authority is vested in this group of people such that they can take what isn't theirs from a person who has done them no harm. "All for the greater good," says you, but who are these demi-gods that they can perceive the greater good? Again, they are mortals just like you and I and have no particular powers to discern how best to allocate the private property of individuals. And even if they did, they would have no moral authority to do so. Just the authority of the bayonet.

All for now, I'm putting my head on the chopping block "for the greater good". All I ask is that you be civil in your counter.

I would assume that most people supporting NASA (scientifically literate people) would also be in favor of eviscerating our defense budget.

Best not to assume anything of the sort. After all, this administration seems to be perfectly capable of both supporting NASA (and other health and science programs) and supporting the Imperium. Hard to square, but there you have it.

[The Ancient]

We should just start shooting shit at Mars that could be used to build a rocket to get off Mars and then send people over there with a film crew. Call the reality show "Escape from Mars," and air that shit on a national network.

I just found a way to make money from space travel, give me a fucking Nobel Prize.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by Horse

absolutely useless to land on the moon.

I can see one use for landing on the moon and that is practice. You never assume you can do something that has never been done. It's a series of little steps that progressively builds your expertise. ESPECIALLY in harsh environments like space, where one little fuck up means you're dead and money/time wasted.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

We should just start shooting shit at Mars that could be used to build a rocket to get off Mars and then send people over there with a film crew. Call the reality show "Escape from Mars," and air that shit on a national network.

I just found a way to make money from space travel, give me a fucking Nobel Prize.

would you settle for a cookie?

[The Ancient]

Homemade or store-bought? And what variety?

I mean a cookie sounds pretty good right now, but if I'm gonna settle for it I better enjoy the hell out of it.

Edit: Actually don't they give you some prize money with the Nobel? I could probably buy a lot of cookies with that money, I think I'm going to hold out for that, thanks anyway.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

Homemade or store-bought? And what variety?

I mean a cookie sounds pretty good right now, but if I'm gonna settle for it I better enjoy the hell out of it.

Homemade. Choice of chocolate chip or peanut butter w/hershey's kiss on top.

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Etoille

Homemade. Choice of chocolate chip or peanut butter w/hershey's kiss on top.

I want macadamia nut cookies , thx.

[Arative]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

We should just start shooting shit at Mars that could be used to build a rocket to get off Mars and then send people over there with a film crew. Call the reality show "Escape from Mars," and air that shit on a national network.

There already is a similar plan that doesn't include the reality show at least. The Promise of Mars

Its basically a plan to skip the moon and just go directly to Mars, first using unmanned ships to bring items to Mars that people would need use to get back to Earth.

Although you may be on to something with the reality TV, at least it would give all the mouth breathers something to root for.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

I want macadamia nut cookies , thx.

I don't bust out the full court baking press til xmas season.

Chocolate cookies w/mint chips.
Pumpkin oatmeal choc chip cookies
Butter cookies
Peanut butter w/hershey kiss
Chocolate chip cookies
Poppyseed bread
Fudge
Peppermint bark

I don't do macadamia nut ones - no one really seems to like em all that much and I dont really eat a lot of em (all the stuff I bake) myself. Save the calories for the xmas dinners (no one, and I mean no one beats my stuffing. period. its the only thing that comes close to how awesome my burgers are)

[Brikker]

I wish I could find an article I read a couple years back in Wired about why making a moon base/creating Nasa shit based around more journeys to the moon was such a tremendous waste of money and time, and where that money and time could be spent for more gain.

It was a good article.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

If you disagree with this, WHY do you disagree with this? Does it just feel wrong to you? Or can you sense both the immorality and the danger in vesting such awesome and terrible power in a group of humans, frail as the rest of us?

Well, obviously I won't discuss this in the framework of killing old people, but we have made quite the science out of trying to invest certain people with enough power to do useful things, but not enough power to unilaterally perpetrate any gross injustices. I agree that it's dangerous and difficult to do it right, but I think that there are a lot of important decisions that have to be made more or less as a society, and some large or small group of people is going to be making them, one way or the other.

If I steal your wallet you rightly perceive that I have wronged you. It's not merely that the costs outweigh the benefits, rendering it an impractical action; it's prima facie wrong for me to steal your wallet. After all, it's yours.

I don't feel so strongly about this. I think it's wrong to steal (morally) because it hurts someone, and (ethically) because it's illegal and we abide by a social contract that is defined by laws. The wallet (notwithstanding what's in it) is only "yours" by law in the first place because you paid a big corporation money for it, which was spent on the logistics of a wallet factory and wallet trucks, wallet retail stores, and wallet advertising. It's not clear to me that there is some great moral imperative underlying your private wallet property beyond the simple fact that you need it, there's a law saying you can keep it, and it's valuable to you.

As such, I don't really understand why taxation (one level removed from "stealing" your wallet, at least, since you're being recompensed for it indirectly and you're free to eventually move to a different place with different tax laws) is immoral, given that most people would agree that some level of taxes and government spending has a big net benefit for all of us.

...who are these demi-gods that they can perceive the greater good? Again, they are mortals just like you and I and have no particular powers to discern how best to allocate the private property of individuals. And even if they did, they would have no moral authority to do so. Just the authority of the bayonet.

Well, the idea is that our elected officials and their appointees are in their position because they have particularly good qualifications for judging such things, like education and experience. It may not always work out that way, of course.

Best not to assume anything of the sort. After all, this administration seems to be perfectly capable of both supporting NASA (and other health and science programs) and supporting the Imperium. Hard to square, but there you have it.

I might have too much faith in Obama's judgement and the judgement of the sane minority of senators and representatives, but I think many of them don't personally support things like our defense budget, but feel compelled to support it politically regardless.

[AlexTheDictator]

Hey, Ancalagon. I can see your communism.

[Kaige]

We should just find ways to get messages into space. Then when aliens come to help us out, we own them for their technology.

[MrGraham]

My position would be that NASA probably deserves more money but that putting people on the moon is not a good investment for that money. What does it accomplish that unmanned vessels can't, besides figuring out ways to make it easier to send men into space again? We're decades if not centuries from colonization, and colonization is the only thing I can think of that requires a human being there, barring unusual repair efforts on the vessel.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by MrGraham

My position would be that NASA probably deserves more money but that putting people on the moon is not a good investment for that money. What does it accomplish that unmanned vessels can't, besides figuring out ways to make it easier to send men into space again? We're decades if not centuries from colonization, and colonization is the only thing I can think of that requires a human being there, barring unusual repair efforts on the vessel.

The only thing separating us from moon colonization is money, not technology. There is a reason so many very informed, talented people were pissed when the Apollo program was scrapped. It would've been expensive, but that technology right there was enough to start a moon base.

I honestly don't understand how anyone who supports healthcare doesn't support the space program, tbh. Nearly every major technological breakthrough in healthcare for the last 40 years was either a direct result or the result of a result, so to speak, of the space program.

And the economy? The Chase Econometric study in 1976, which was independent, estimated that the ROI on the Space Program in GDP was a 1:27 ratio. That is for every single dollar spent on the space program, the GDP increased by $27. That beats the return of any funding of any project... ever.

Education? Would we like to compare the test scores, at every single grade level, between say 1948-1976, in math and science to now? Or perhaps the percent of people who graduated with worthwhile degrees, a B.S in something, compared to now?

The Space Program did more for this country, on all levels of economics, education, innovation, technology, and pride, then any program before or since has done for any country. You cannot reasonably look at the numbers, and think spending more money on NASA is a bad thing.

How many board members have cancer? Or know someone who had cancer? If they caught it in time, treated, and didn't die from it, you have our Space Program to thank for that.

Survived a bad car accident? One where perhaps the computer modeling of exactly how cars "crunch" on impact increased their safety factors, or an airbag was deployed? Space Program.

I could go on. The fact is that if you use an electronic device, any electronic device, on a daily basis it was made better, safer, and cheaper because of the Space Program. If anything you own is made out a material invented after 1970, chances are the R&D for it is from the space program.

You'd think with all the bullshit no one wants that taxes are wasted on, we'd be happy when the money gets spent on something that has actually, provably, contributed something to our society.