Gunmen shoots up gym, PA

[Cad]

Originally Posted by tjac

Hardly. The only assumption I am making is that each use was by a different user. Certainly you can see it doesn't matter. The statistics still proves very little in favor of guns saving lives, and it becomes even more dubious when multiple uses are attributed to individual users.

Not so much. Could just mean that some of those surveyed used their gun defensively in a situation which wasn't life threatening - such as a mugging or someone who pulled a gun in an assault situation for self-defense. The statistics certainly don't conclusively support what you're asserting.

[Kimchii]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Which is why gun crime is significantly lower in countries with gun control.

You need to compare the long term consequances of these laws, not the short term effects.

Nevermind that we're also talking about restrictions far more severe than those mentioned. I mean, you bitch in America about not being allowed to carry a concealed pistol? I couldn't even a hunting rifle if I wanted one without going through this whole massive process of background checks and licensing. It's a whole other level. But you know what? It works.

You also need time to remove guns out of circulation. Of course you aren't going to see an immediate impact if everyone and their mum already owns a gun. It would probably take a decade or two to get them off the streets.

You are a fucking idiot, maybe think a little before you post lol? A decade or two? Haha, you sir are a fucking tool. Lets say it takes 20 years (ahuh) to get guns off the streets, for 20 years you will see an increase in crime and wrongful punishments of individuals still carrying guns to protect themselves/families.

I can see it in the headlines right now, some criminal breaks into a house and the owner shoots the individual. Now the home owner does jail time and possibly gets sued by the criminal?

Fucking whiny bitch

[Bloodget]

*The National Self Defense Survey, as conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, indicates that Americans use guns in self defense 2,500,000 times per year, which is once every 13 seconds.

*In about 30% of the defensive gun uses, the would-be victim believes that the gun “almost certainly” or “probably” saved a life.

Another way to read that : without guns, you would have nearly 800 000 more deaths / year.
Yeah wow. The country will soon be empty without guns or this is BS
The worst shit hole in Africa is safer than that!

[Tangurena]

Originally Posted by tjac

Are you really having trouble distinguishing between this Pittsburg event and a serial killer or genocide?

This guy said on his blogs that he started planning this event on Nov 5, 2008 - the day after Obama won. He also complained about white women dating black men. This is the 3rd spree shooting in 4 months where race was a motivating factor in the crime.

[Azrayne]

Originally Posted by Kimchii

You are a fucking idiot, maybe think a little before you post lol? A decade or two? Haha, you sir are a fucking tool. Lets say it takes 20 years (ahuh) to get guns off the streets, for 20 years you will see an increase in crime and wrongful punishments of individuals still carrying guns to protect themselves/families.

I can see it in the headlines right now, some criminal breaks into a house and the owner shoots the individual. Now the home owner does jail time and possibly gets sued by the criminal?

Fucking whiny bitch

Whatever, you can moan about it all you want, but the simple fact is that the rest of the western world has far tighter gun controls and far less gun crime. Doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.

Notice how there's no major debate in the rest of the world about wanting more access to guns? Is the entirety of Europe and Oceania comprised of brainwashed sheep, or maybe we've realised that gun control 'actually works' and that we're better off with less guns, not more?

[Arbitrary]

Guns are a macguffin. The heart of the matter is our War on Drugs. If we weren't such children when it came to our drug policy we could keep our guns and still have much lower violent crime rates.

[Azrayne]

You see that's the hilarious thing, you can walk into the mall and buy a gun but be arrested for smoking a joint. How fuck up is that? It's so many of the same people who support the 'WAR ON DUUURGS' that also support gun ownership as well.

But yeah, legalize the soft drugs, decriminalize the hard ones and put treatment and education programs into action and you'll see a massive, massive reduction in violent crime. But that would be 'condoning drug use!' so it's better to leave the market in the hands of criminals, right?

Whatever, I'm not going to get started on drug law or I could ramble for hours about how fucked up they are. I'm just glad that enough of our generation seem to realise that that there will probably be some actual progress overthe next half century or so.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Which is why gun crime is significantly lower in countries with gun control.

All of those countries don't have "A War on Drugs". If you remove drug related gun violence from the stats, US is estimated to have the lowest gun crime in the world.

[Blumpster]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Whatever, you can moan about it all you want, but the simple fact is that the rest of the western world has far tighter gun controls and far less gun crime. Doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.

Notice how there's no major debate in the rest of the world about wanting more access to guns? Is the entirety of Europe and Oceania comprised of brainwashed sheep, or maybe we've realised that gun control 'actually works' and that we're better off with less guns, not more?

You can't just draw a straight line linking those two factors. It doesn't work like that. Violence does not just stem from gun prevalence. Look at a lot of other factors, such as immigration, quality of life, poverty, drug use, race issues, lack of proper medical(mental) care, Human Development Index etc. Those are going to promote more violence than the fact someone owns a gun.

The fact is these issues are magnified in America and we have a done a much poorer job at handling them than in other countries, say France, the UK, Germany etc. Their people are more willing to be regulated by these gun laws because their other needs are being met. They feel protected and provided for by their government, where as in America most people don't. We cling to the guns as a self-defense because we feel we need to since our government is not there for us. In America, unless you have 7 kids and no job, you're on your own.

[Zodiac]

When the zombies come none of you gun control nuts can stay in the bomb shelter in my back yard.

[Azrayne]

Originally Posted by Aulirophile

All of those countries don't have "A War on Drugs". If you remove drug related gun violence from the stats, US is estimated to have the lowest gun crime in the world.

Drugs are legal in Australia? NZ? Europe?

Fuck, I wish :|

[Eomer]

Originally Posted by Aulirophile

All of those countries don't have "A War on Drugs". If you remove drug related gun violence from the stats, US is estimated to have the lowest gun crime in the world.

Your first part may have some validity. The second part? About the US having the "lowest gun crime in the world" once drug crime is taken out? You're just flat out making shit up.

[Phoenix]

Minus murder, the US is no more of a violent place than any other western country. That in itself is pretty amazing, considering no other country in the world has to deal with the racial issues nor the insane levels of illegal immigration that greatly contribute to our crime rates.

[Eomer]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Minus murder, the US is no more of a violent place than any other western country. That in itself is pretty amazing, considering no other country in the world has to deal with the racial issues nor the insane levels of illegal immigration that greatly contribute to our crime rates.

/facepalm

Canada has every bit the race and immigration issues the US has. Immigration wise, relative to our population we're one of the most permissive countries on the planet, if not outright. Some cities like Toronto and Vancouver have massive visible minority populations, and in some cases whites are actually the minority.

Race wise, we've got the whole Native thing going on that's actually very comparable to your issues with blacks, in terms of them being way overrepresented in prisons, in crime statistics and so on.

So stop trying to make excuses about why your countrymen kill each other on a such a regular basis, when every other country you would compare it to has similar issues to deal with.

Regarding murders vs. regular crimes, it appears that you're correct more or less: Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Lleauaric~EW]

See this is the problem.

If most people were safe, and handled guns properly, used trigger locks or gun boxes.. no problem at all.

But the problem is so fucking many people are goddamn retards.. they do stupid shit like sleep with their gun under their pillow or next to them in a nightstand, or clean their gun when they are arguing with their wife, or get drunk and wave it around like a new fucking toy.

As a result.. people fucking die. not the morons that deserve, but the people that dont.

Example. in 2005 there were 6,694 deaths in the age group of 0 - 14. Of those.. 404 were deaths by handguns. Only 35% of homes have guns in them. (Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2009)

Add this to the fact that in 2005 there were 360 justified shootings (CDC)

A home with a gun in home makes its inhabitants 4x more likely to involved in a accidental shooting and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than be used in self defense. (A Kellerman, et al. Journal of Trauma, August 1998; Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. “The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries.” Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)


This is good too.
VPC - A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense

Now.. I think people should be able to own guns.. but the reality is that most people are fucking morons. I want the bar to own a gun to be high enough to discourage the really stupid and the 48% of Americans who don't use gun boxes and/or trigger locks. (Peter Hart Research Associates poll, 1999.)

The fact is that the gun violence is directly attributable to the massive amounts of irresponisibility and fucked up-ness in our culture. 25,000 guns were reported lost, stolen or missing in 2008.. 25 fucking thousand... (frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS)

Stop saying "Gun owners are prepared"
What the fuck ever, can you all.. Oh I dont know.. fucking prove it and maybe act like it.. that would be great..