Atheists choose 'de-baptism' to renounce childhood faith

[chaos]

Not really, you're being Utnayan

Thing is, I can prove, through carbon dating (and photographic evidence from your uncle's shed) that your penis does not exist outside of time and could not have created the universe, as it did not exist. You were born with it, you grew up with it, your uncle touched it inappropriately, and here it is today. Assuming we don't develop time traveling jock straps in the future, or your penis doesn't become self-aware/omniscient at the same time.

[Smac]

Originally Posted by chaos

Why does anyone have the burden of proof?

Because some people want other people to do certain things or think a certain way. I realize that this mentality is not confined to religion alone. But the person being influenced has the right to demand proof that they are not being mislead. It seems that religion is the only area where being skeptical in this fashion is deemed a bad thing.

[Smocca]

Originally Posted by chaos

Not really, you're being Utnayan

Thing is, I can prove, through carbon dating (and photographic evidence from your uncle's shed) that your penis does not exist outside of time and could not have created the universe, as it did not exist. You were born with it, you grew up with it, your uncle touched it inappropriately, and here it is today. Assuming we don't develop time traveling jock straps in the future, or your penis doesn't become self-aware/omniscient at the same time.

Well I'll take your "evidence" into consideration. After a few centuries and half a dozen popes, my denomination of faith may take these findings into account. We'll keep your grandchildren's children posted.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Araxen

"Have a Bless Day", is something I hear everyday and one day I'm just gonna tell them to take their bs elsewhere.

Yeah, I get pretty tired of that but I just let it slide. I've gotten a lot more tolerant, or apathetic, as I've gotten older. I used to go so far as to tell people not to "god bless" me for sneezing. I don't believe in god and its just a sneeze, not an evil spirit.

The way I see it with silence though, is that one almost has a duty to speak out. For all of recorded human history religions have been oppressing free expression of ideas and torturing, persecuting and killing non believers. Many brave men and women have died or had their lives ruined for expressing themselves. This is not ancient history. To some degree it still goes on to this day in parts of the world. In the short history of this country, which was founded in part on the ideals of freedom of speech and religion, there were communities where you could be put to death if anyone so much as suspected that you were a heretic against christianity.

So now that we have more freedom we are supposed to just shut up? I find it would be a dire disservice to all those who came before us to just zip it in the name of manners. People still go out and "witness" or act as "missionaries", I don't see an issue with non believers making their ideas public. I'm not interested in active suppression of religious talk through the government, even though I'm sure plenty of the faithful would gladly see my speech neutered. Its not enough just to have the rights, they should be exercised if for no other reason than not to forget the darker times.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by Smocca

Well I'll take your "evidence" into consideration. After a few decades and half a dozen popes, my denomination of faith may take these findings into account. We'll keep your grandchildren's children posted.

Yeah but my kids just won't give a shit about the crazy guy ranting about his penis or whatever. It's all about values, what you teach your kids is how you influence the path society will take. And I will definitely tell them to stay away from people who think their dick created reality. Sure, maybe in an act of teenage rebellion (or experimentation) they might go strike up a conversation with crazy dickman, but ultimately they are going to fall back on the values instilled in them from childhood.

Penis.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Etwynn

we don't know things are false until we prove them to be false.

By that logic, God might exist because we haven't disproven him.

If you are just going to dig deep into Philosophical mumbo-jumbo then sure, god has a chance of existing. The problem is, god has the exact same chance of existing as an infinite number of things that we have no evidence of.

Goblins in the center of the Earth? Unicorns in space? Centipedes in the cosmic vagina? It's all just as likely to be real as any kind of god that we can possibly come up with. Perhaps all of known reality is just a bubble of liquid smegma on the tip of some colossal Universal Cockmonster? At that point we have to begin looking at all these possibilities and eliminating them because if we don't they will limit our understanding of how the material world works. If we based all our assumptions on a super intelligence that was omnipresent and omnipotant, we might lose out on actually figuring out where we came from, how this all started and how it might end.

...or we could just get in the same boat with god and Mr. Cockmonster.

[cosmic_cs]

It's so easy to argue against religion! You have reason and logic on your side!

[Torrid]

Originally Posted by Fammaden

The way I see it with silence though, is that one almost has a duty to speak out.

I feel similar. I don't personally go around telling people that they should stop believing, but I think it would be a good thing if religious falsehoods were combated in a way with reasoned debate and history lessons. Evolution should be defended for example, as should myths such as suggesting that secularism is some new attack on a Christian nation. I would also say that it would be extremely important to be as non-adversarial as possible and sort of have a "come on in, the water's fine over here" kind of attitude instead of ridiculing beliefs which would only have the opposite effect. On this board, however, I like being obnoxious.

I tend to see religion as a sort of "idea virus" that afflicts people. Like some sort of condition that can arise in a species that becomes self aware and intelligent enough to know they are going to die and can communicate knowledge to one another. I honestly feel lucky in a way to not be brainwashed into thinking that I am going to suffer for eternity for not doing any of the silly things the church tells me I need to do.

What is the difference between a cult and a religion? Why are theists not offended by the "de-programmers" that try to snap people out of believing cult nonsense? I bet a lot of so called atheists would still be a little uncomfortable proclaiming that they give their soul to Satan freely, and cursing God's name out loud in the most vulgar fashion possible, because getting rid of a belief structure is not a binary switch. In that sense, ridiculing your baptism with others may have a genuine therapeutic benefit. Not that I would ever take part in something like that.

[Knucklehead]

Originally Posted by Torrid

I tend to see religion as a sort of "idea virus" that afflicts people.

You would enjoy Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, though I think the need to believe in something like religion stems not from any nefarious brainwashing schemes (although some do, I'm sure) or viral self-aware thoughts, but from our emotions, and the feeling that when someone we love is dead and gone, it's only temporary. Science can explain that lightning isn't some bearded toga-wearing god tossing thunderbolts from the snow-capped mountain tops, it might even unveil the mystery of why we of all animals have such a developed sense of self-conscience and what happens to it when we die, but I don't think it will ever solve the problem of loss. I certainly hope it doesn't. Just imagine how interesting Vulcan literature and television would be.

[chaos]

I think there's a big difference between combating creationism and challenging random people on their spiritual beliefs. I can't say that I would agree that you have a duty to confront individuals on their belief system, it's strictly none of your business, or anyone else's. The other is a matter of public policy, and that's very different.

It's like confronting a woman because she had an abortion once and trying to have a conversation about it. You're taking something intensely personal and trying to inject yourself into it, either from ego or whatever motive you have. I understand that there are a lot of religious people who do the same thing, and that's just as wrong. That doesn't make it right in either case.

[Northerner]

Originally Posted by Torrid

I bet a lot of so called atheists would still be a little uncomfortable proclaiming that they give their soul to Satan freely, and cursing God's name out loud in the most vulgar fashion possible...

Most atheists have at some point stood in the rain, holding up a nine-iron, daring god to strike down the heathen. That's not terribly smart or mature or anything for a variety of reasons but I know lots of people that have similar stories from when they were young.

[psu199]

of course super intelligence, god, creator, et al doesn't have to adhere to these observable phenomena. duh? he made them, if he exists. why the heck would he be bound by them? that's pretty stupid.

I have nothing to add except for the fact that I was struck by how Dumar sounds remarkably similar to Sam Deathwalker.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by chaos

I think there's a big difference between combating creationism and challenging random people on their spiritual beliefs.

How?

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything but how are they so different? If I know enough about a person to know their spiritual beliefs, it's because they either told me, or because I asked and...they told me.

I have never asked a person to describe to me their thoughts on religion and received a response along the lines of, "My spiritual beliefs or non-beliefs are a private matter between myself and whatever sort of creator/non-creator I choose to accept."

If someone gave me that answer, I would drop it, instantly. The thing is though, I don't even have to ask. All I have to do is bring up something. Just about anything. Let's say dinosaurs. I can say something like, "Dinosaurs are awesome!" and it act like some sort of idiot lodestone drawing out people that have something to say about my comments. They might be full blown Lumie retard, or even just slightly Dumar. Either way, at that point, all I'm doing is correcting the wrong shit they say.

Even if we use a less obvious example, say something like stem cell research, it acts the same way. You will instantly be bombarded with theists wishing to use their faith or spirituality as some kind of roadmap for how we are to deal with the issue(keeping in mind that beliefs are sacred and can't be argued against).

Look at how this thread turned out. Araxen posted a fact. Everything was roses with no one picking on the poor theists until Manseed said something that was incorrect. At that point, the game is on. No where did we have rabid atheists tearing down the sacred tenants of the faithful and rarely does that situation ever occur.

[chaos]

Obviously it depends on the situation. Having a conversation with someone you know about it is again different than hitting up a random person or trying to draw someone into the conversation that allows you to shit on religion with an audience. Don't pretend that doesn't happen, it happens here all the time, I've seen it happen in real life. There are people who liek to provoke arguments because they think their beliefs, on whatever subject, make them more intelligent than other people and they want everyone to know this. Those people are assholes, and they are not exclusive to atheists by any means.

I do think that someone's personal beliefs are... maybe not sacred, I guess "none of your business" would be the phrase. If someone asked me pointedly about my religious beliefs, I would probably tell them (not religious btw, atheist is probably the word to describe me, I don't really put a lot of thought into it). I think everyone has a kind of canned answer that they respond with when asked about things like that, things that they really don't want to discuss with people outside of a circle that they feel comfortable with. Even within that circle, I can't imagine wanting to discuss religion with my religious friends. From a standpoint of public policy and how religion should not inject itself into politics, sure, if it's the sort of friend you discuss politics with. But from a position of "your beliefs are wrong and here is why", hell no, it just reeks of ego to try and challenge people on that. When you go from arguing facts ("Dinosaurs did exist, Earth is more than 6000 years old, and you're wrong for believing otherwise") to theory ("God does not exist") then you're just jerking off. I don't see the point in even having the second debate, there's no evidence on either side, and that's where the argument ends.

[Northerner]

It is mostly a reaction to religious people doing exactly that on a regular basis and also tossing in the whole ethical=religious bit and perhaps some "you are going to hell" and such as a bonus. It is an over-reaction certainly and I think it is pretty silly personally but I completely understand the evangelical atheist attitude still. I don't condone it but hey, I get it.

Of course there are also atheists that, much like their religious counterparts, really believe that the world would just be a much better place if other belief systems would go away and people as a whole would embrace the truth. They tend to be young enough to think that their actions will matter on that front.