Apple to Microsoft: "Stop airing those commercials"

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Funny you should mention that. You should probably do some research though before you pretend to know everything. Apple has often had access to or announced the option of Intel's newest chips before other companies. TG Daily - Apple gets another secret Intel processor

As far as CPU's go, it's really quite simple. No single unit is exactly the same as another. Some run hotter, some cooler. The companies who manufacture them actually test this and price them to companies like Apple accordingly. It's part of a process called 'binning' and I'm sure you can read about it online. Apple apparently is willing to pay a bit more for CPU and RAM that run cooler.

Could you please stick to examples pertinent to Laptops specifically. You've discussed the build quality and UI of the iPhone, iPod, iMac PC, etc.

The very definition of a fanboy is automatically deciding something is good, because of who makes it. You are listing good features of their other products and somehow those are magically properties of their laptops.

Pull open their laptop. HDD? Seagate or Western Digital. CPU? Intel. Believe what you want they use what Intel ships them, Apple isn't doing independent testing and sending chips back for not being up to their standard. Ram? whatever OEM stuff they can get.

When you buy an Apple product you are paying a large premium for OSX. Everything else is the same.

[ChewieTobbacca]

I love it when people say Apple has more innovative hardware and platforms.

Fact - Apple uses the same goddamn processors and boards that other hardware makers have access to. Granted, some boards/processors might be Apple exclusive, but guess what - it's not because Intel is being nice, it's because Apple forks over the $ for something that Intel designed and manufactured.

It's like how MS paid OEM's not to put other OS choices on back in the day, or how Intel paid OEM's in Europe not to allow AMD processors lest they lose their discounts (go check out the EU lawsuit against Intel).

Fact - Apple's shit is manufactured in the same factories that other companies get their shit done in China. I love it when people say Apple has better craftsmanship - oh, maybe you didn't realize that iPhone mainboards and cases happen to be made by the same company that makes the XBOX360 mainboard, your Dell or HP OEM mainboards, etc.?

Apple makes people believe their hardware is somehow superior through clever advertising. Their cinema displays, while quite good, get this reputation that their panels are Apple-special. Fact - they use the same goddamn panels that other companies do (especially those from NEC and the high-end Dell's). Their panels are made by Samsung, LG, etc., hardly Apple designed or manufactured. Buy a Dell 30" for $1k cheaper and get a professional calibration tool for $250 - same shit.

And who said MS spends that much more advertising? Apple spent over $480 million to advertise, while Vista was given only $300 mil budget. Granted, Apple advertises more than just an OS, but considering that MS is 90%+ of the world's market share and many times larger than Apple, it sure is a lot of money being thrown out there.

Fact of the matter is, Apple is one of the highest profit-margin companies in the tech industry. That tells me that they're selling their products at much higher prices than they actually should be, especially in an industry that *should* be cutthroat - but they, since they have a monopoly on their OS, they can charge whatever they want right? Just market it like the second coming and people eat that shit up.

I do like many of Apple's products (namely the iPhone), but outside of a few power users, the vast majority of their computer buyers have no clue other than "its not Windows" and they cite the same inaccurate statements their ad campaign used.

Apple really is brilliant though. They managed to take the organized religion business model and apply it to the high tech industry.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by brekk

The very definition of a fanboy is automatically deciding something is good, because of who makes it. You are listing good features of their other products and somehow those are magically properties of their laptops.

But I've talked about laptops too. Quite a few Microsoft fanboys are branching out and I've been responding in kind.

Originally Posted by brekk

Pull open their laptop. HDD? Seagate or Western Digital. CPU? Intel. Believe what you want they use what Intel ships them, Apple isn't doing independent testing and sending chips back for not being up to their standard. Ram? whatever OEM stuff they can get.

But that's just not true and I already talked about why. No CPU is the exact same. Some produce more heat than another that is precisely the same model. Chip manufacturers know this and sell them for slightly different prices accordingly. Supposedly Apple chooses the units that run a bit cooler (a friend of mine works at Apple and visits China frequently to help with this kind of thing).

Originally Posted by brekk

When you buy an Apple product you are paying a large premium for OSX. Everything else is the same.

Again, there are physical differences. Unibody, physical design (you may not, but a lot of people like how Apple laptops look), battery life, trackpad, displays, etc.

Laptops cannot be simply boiled down to hard drive, CPU, RAM and OS. Unless you just don't care at all how they look, which is a valid point.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

No CPU is the exact same. Some produce more heat than another that is precisely the same model. Chip manufacturers know this and sell them for slightly different prices accordingly.

No.

[Hachima]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Look, I realize I'm fighting an uphill battle on a PC gaming forum. But the fact is, Microsoft makes unimaginative, buggy products. Dell and HP go for the very cheapest option always.

I don't know what Microsoft products you think are so buggy, but I think they make very stable products. I have windows machines that go months without needing a reboot, and years without having to reformat them. What is buggy is 3rd party software that gets developed to run on microsoft based machines.

I've spent years developing on MS Visual Studio and a year developing in Xcode(Apples development software) for the iPhone. Visual Studio is a much more stable enviornment than Xcode. Xcode frequently crashes and screws up builds. It screws stuff up so bad sometimes I have to restore my iPhone image because of problems Xcode has deploying new apps to the iPhone and corrupting certificates .

Try a simple google search xcode unexpected error - Google Search

The first thing that comes up is a bug that requires you to reboot your iPhone in order to fix the problem... and many more "You have to reboot your iPhone and close your Xcode and then restart your Xcode again and build & go to retry your project"

What Apple has to their advantage is they are very restrictive on what actually gets released for their OS, so they can limit the number of buggy apps that get released.

I could easily write an iPhone or Mac OS app that is buggy and would force you to reboot the system., just like I could for Windows or Linux.

Apple reminds me of a hot girl that is high maintenance, expense and very picky. They do a great job at making things look good on the outside and also in their base software development tools. I really don't like how their systems are set up and having to use their proprietary xcode language to develop things. A lot of buggy stuff to work around. Even When you add stuff with their Xcode system I've found the base sample code that gets generated to be incorrect and requires fixing from the start. Once you figure out all the required workarounds it does look nice though with all the animations/transitions they do for you though.

Since developing for Windows or Xbox 360 through XNA is so much more friendly to entry level programmers, you will get a lot more buggy software out there. At the same time you get a lot more variety to choose from though.

Back to the OT though, Apple has been preying on peoples ignorance for a long time now. Much like how PC sellers did in the past. When PCs were first sold, they were charging 4x the price for many of the parts. Now it has come closer to what you can get the parts for on Newegg but still a bit high. Apple is still on the patch of selling for super high prices compared to newegg prices though. I bought my 2 gig ram upgrade for $60 when Apple wanted $350 AND I bought higher quality/faster ram than they were selling.

Just like PC users started to expect better prices compared to what they could order parts for, I think Apple is going to be required to do the same for the hardware they offer.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

Fact - Apple's shit is manufactured in the same factories that other companies get their shit done in China. I love it when people say Apple has better craftsmanship - oh, maybe you didn't realize that iPhone mainboards and cases happen to be made by the same company that makes the XBOX360 mainboard, your Dell or HP OEM mainboards, etc.?

Again, things like the unibody and trackpad go against what you are saying. I'm not saying that Apple hires better Chinese workers to assemble their products. But they are making innovations in the physical design.

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

Apple makes people believe their hardware is somehow superior through clever advertising. Their cinema displays, while quite good, get this reputation that their panels are Apple-special. Fact - they use the same goddamn panels that other companies do (especially those from NEC and the high-end Dell's). Their panels are made by Samsung, LG, etc., hardly Apple designed or manufactured. Buy a Dell 30" for $1k cheaper and get a professional calibration tool for $250 - same shit.

I think the Apple Cinema displays look nice, but are way overpriced. I use two 30" Dell displays at work.

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

And who said MS spends that much more advertising?

I didn't see anyone here say that.

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

Fact of the matter is, Apple is one of the highest profit-margin companies in the tech industry. That tells me that they're selling their products at much higher prices than they actually should be

Or they innovate and make quality products and are therefore able to charge a higher profit margin?

[ChewieTobbacca]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

But that's just not true and I already talked about why. No CPU is the exact same. Some produce more heat than another that is precisely the same model. Chip manufacturers know this and sell them for slightly different prices accordingly. Supposedly Apple chooses the units that run a bit cooler (a friend of mine works at Apple and visits China frequently to help with this kind of thing).

No, just no. INDIVIDUAL CPU's can vary a bit in terms of voltage required or maximum overclockability - that's because there are random variations when a CPU is made in the factory. However, Intel, much less Apple, can you tell you which one will run cooler immediately etc. within the same fucking model.

You buy a Q6600 it'll be guaranteed to run 2.4 GHz at a certain voltage range - THATS IT. Whether its a golden chip that runs to 4.0 GHz on air or runs 1-2 C cooler than the next one from the same silicon is random.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

No.

I really thought this was fairly common knowledge, but you're dead wrong. This isn't like creating a postage stamp. There are published specifications that chip manufacturers must meet or they throw out the chip (part of the binning process). It's quite easy for a company to say that they want the chips that meet a slightly higher specification and it occurs commonly.

Semiconductor Tour: Package Test

Processor Fabrication: How a CPU is Built

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

Whether its a golden chip that runs to 4.0 GHz on air or runs 1-2 C cooler than the next one from the same silicon is random.

Exactly. But it can be tested for and therefore sold at a different price.

[ToeMissile]

A bit late to the party, but don't forget this bit of 'innovation': Apple pays $100m to Creative in patent lawsuit settlement

[ChewieTobbacca]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Exactly. But it can be tested for and therefore sold at a different price.

Wow, you really are delusional arent you

Sorry but when Apple buys a fucking Q6600 for example, it's buying a Q6600 - no, not individually tested (no way does Intel or Apple for that matter individually test MILLIONS of chips to see what they can actually run at - because if they actually run better, Intel would kick it up to a Q6700 or QX9650 for example) - but rather a whole goddamn batch of them at a price Intel and Apple negotiate.

And guess what? Apple runs their notebook/desktop processors at the original speed that Intel says they'll be run at. No overclocking, no special downclocking, none of that! So no, they're not magically faster, nor are they magically cooler running (a heatsink or fan or tower layout matter more than 1 or 2 degrees C when these chips are at stock).

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Again, things like the unibody and trackpad go against what you are saying. I'm not saying that Apple hires better Chinese workers to assemble their products. But they are making innovations in the physical design.
...
Or they innovate and make quality products and are therefore able to charge a higher profit margin?

So now you bring up physical design.

First, I love it when people here in America believe that these things came from Apple first.

Shit like thin notebooks like the MacBook Air or ultra light materials? For crying out loud, Sony released a Japan-only ultrathin notebook years before the MBA (clever acronym too, considering the price tag).

Or clever heat and weight saving materials? Carbon fiber notebooks have been made by other OEMS. Know why we don't know much more? Advertising

The thing is, Apple gets the vast majority of their success by clever advertising and psychology. They make you believe your product is somehow more special or crucial to your life and well-being. Example, under contacts for your iphone, you can actually label someone's phone number as 'iPhone'. No no, not mobile! But 'iPhone'! Like it's too good to be a mobile number.

Woopity de-doo, and this comes from an iphone user.

Oh believe me, Apple executes their business plan brilliantly and generates tons of profit and revenue for their shareholders. But so much of it is built on hype and pretentious advertising (and particularly loud fanatics) that it can't help but piss off power users elsewhere who can see through it.

Next i'm going to hear that Apple is better than MS because Apple's share prices are worth more each!

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by ToeMissile

A bit late to the party, but don't forget this bit of 'innovation': Apple pays $100m to Creative in patent lawsuit settlement

Sorry, but patents and lawsuits don't determine innovation all the time. RIM has paid out $900 million in the past few years for nonsense patents that obviously should never have even been awarded. Pretty much all the major tech companies take it up the ass from patent trolls constantly.

In my opinion, Creative's ridiculous patent falls in that category of should-never-have-been-awarded, based on obviousness. Thanks broken USPTO!

Basically, this is what Creative managed to get a patent for:

"A method of selecting at least one track from a plurality of tracks stored in a computer-readable medium of a portable media player configured to present sequentially a first, second, and third display screen on the display of the media player, the plurality of tracks accessed according to a hierarchy, the hierarchy having a plurality of categories, subcategories, and items respectively in a first, second, and third level of the hierarchy."

Seems incredibly obvious to me by 2001 and if nobody had actually infringed upon the patent, we would be stuck with a lot of terrible music players.

Edit: And really, the way we in the US handle patents has another really stupid aspect. Creative filed in 2001, but weren't awarded the patent until 2005. Based on it being so obvious, I assume Apple and the other companies thought it would never be awarded and started selling devices. Years later, the day after it was awarded, Creative filed their lawsuit.

[Jadn]

I'm late to the party, but I think the commercials are very effective at who they are targeting. The one where the young woman who looks at a few Apple laptops says "I guess I'm not cool enough to get a Mac" is pure $$. That's who they are targeting...the young hip crowd which is how she's portrayed. From a marketing point of view its great stuff, and no doubt has been noticed by Apple.

[Sean]

iPods are complete and utter pieces of shits compared to my Cowon D2. Silly people and your vastly inferior Apple products.

[Araxen]

I wish they would make a mp3 player that didn't include the flash memory and you could just buy that separate. SD cards are dirt cheap and it's a little ridiculous how much these companies charge for 8GB devices. That said the Cowon is pretty nice looking device...

Newegg.com - COWON S9 3.3" 8GB MP3 / MP4 Player