Israel...what to do when you no longer can claim moral high ground

[Etoille]

Israeli soldiers in Gaza describe a 'moral Twilight Zone' | McClatchy

I'd resurrect all of the posts I made a long time ago which had links to the same information (which Millie threw an absolute fit over) but I figure a flat out admission is a big enough fuck you already.

Nor am I going to get into the fact that the settlement building still hasn't stopped in open defiance of the UN, the Gaza blockade and subsequent collapse of the truce with Hamas, and Israel is crying over tactics it INVENTED eg car/suicide bombing, or any other of the million reasons why Israel is NOT a victim but equally to blame for its own situation.

"Sometimes a force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian's shoulder, advancing into a house and using him as a human shield," said one Israeli soldier with the Golani Brigade. "Commanders said these were the instructions, and we had to do it."

[Heylel Teomim]

I sympathize with Israel, probably just out of indoctrination growing up but I still sympathize. That being said, they have at times in their history allowed themselves to become monsters in order to fight monsters. It's a very difficult thing to have your country beset on every border by enemies who want to kill your whole family, but they don't do themselves any favors by becoming brutes themselves.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

I sympathize with Israel, probably just out of indoctrination growing up but I still sympathize. That being said, they have at times in their history allowed themselves to become monsters in order to fight monsters. It's a very difficult thing to have your country beset on every border by enemies who want to kill your whole family, but they don't do themselves any favors by becoming brutes themselves.

I COULD empathize if they didn't do the exact thing to the people they displaced (the Palestinians) when they first got there.

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Etoille

I COULD empathize if they didn't do the exact thing to the people they displaced (the Palestinians) when they first got there.

Etroille.

[CnCGOD]

How on earth do you protect yourself from a population who will never accept a peace that doesn't involve your country no longer existing? Israel is surrounded by hostiles and has been attacked repeatedly and will never just be left alone by the Muslim countries.

There is no high ground when dealing with people like that, you would be sacrificing your own people's lives. Sometimes you do have to become the monster when its either that or watch your people be murdered over and over.

[sachemsiouxx]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

It's a very difficult thing to have your country beset on every border by enemies who want to kill your whole family, but they don't do themselves any favors by becoming brutes themselves.

You realize this also applies to every arab village within Israel, not to mention the Gaza strip...
Really, there is no moral high ground for anyone.

[Heylel Teomim]

Yup, it applies to em all. It'd be nice if they'd just wise up and realize they're both just operating on different versions of the same religion and even have common ancestry. It's not even a Mac vs Windows caliber divide, it's like people getting in a fight who are pro-Win2k and pro-XP.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

I sympathize with Israel, probably just out of indoctrination growing up but I still sympathize.

Does this sound like an admission that you were brainwashed beyond the point where you are capable of changing the opinion given to you?

As for Israel. We told you so.

[Heylel Teomim]

No, it's not an admission. Indoctrination is probably too strong a word, it's just the first one that came to mind when I wrote the post. What I meant is that I've grown up thinking of Israel as an ally, and habit dictates that they still hold that honor in my mind. I'm perfectly capable of changing my opinion, I would think the original post is proof of that. Israel certainly isn't all fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

Wait, aren't you the German guy?

[AladainAF]

Hey look, another fucking Iisrael thread. How about one "Israel is bad, m'mmkay?" thread.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Etoille

I COULD empathize if they didn't do the exact thing to the people they displaced (the Palestinians) when they first got there.

Native Americans would like to have a word with you about pacification in the face of murdering, swindling, lying, cheating invaders.

[Tea on tuesday]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

It's not even a Mac vs Windows caliber divide, it's like people getting in a fight who are pro-Win2k and pro-XP.

I've killed for Windows ME before. I'll do it again.

[The Ancient]

Well doesn't it seem to be that at least in regards to religion it's the nearer divides that prove to be bigger issues than the large ones. It almost has a logical base too, "These guys basically believe in my God but they are perverting it! Hindus? Ha, who cares, they are so wrong about everything."

That is until you manage to wipe out those near to you, then you can start shit with other religions as well. Fucking mankind.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

No, it's not an admission. Indoctrination is probably too strong a word, it's just the first one that came to mind when I wrote the post. What I meant is that I've grown up thinking of Israel as an ally, and habit dictates that they still hold that honor in my mind. I'm perfectly capable of changing my opinion, I would think the original post is proof of that. Israel certainly isn't all fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

Wait, aren't you the German guy?

I've grown up thinking the US were part of the good guys.

Doesn't have anything to do with me being German, but hey if you need to compare yourself, with all the information you have available today to some guy your age 80 years back, be my guest.

I guess if you just set the standard low enough, you can somehow get above it. Nothing I haven't seen many years before.

[Tripamang]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

How on earth do you protect yourself from a population who will never accept a peace that doesn't involve your country no longer existing? Israel is surrounded by hostiles and has been attacked repeatedly and will never just be left alone by the Muslim countries.

There is no high ground when dealing with people like that, you would be sacrificing your own people's lives. Sometimes you do have to become the monster when its either that or watch your people be murdered over and over.

They made peace with something like 3/4 of their neighboring countries and they're in negotiations for peace with the rest. A few of them use the rabble rousing about destroying Isreal as a talking point because it's popular with the people but in the end Isreal is too strong for this to happen.

Isreal isn't going anywhere in it's current condition and the surrounding Arab countries have accepted that. Don't confuse that with me thinking Isreal could disarm tomorrow and everything would be lovey dovey but nobody is screwing with a strong Isreal.

The threat from terrorists is overplayed and they basically can do whatever they want right now because the US supports them. If they actively sought peace with Palestinians, they could get it rather quickly.. but only if they were serious. The reality is it's a war of attrition against the Palestinian in the hopes that they either flee the area or provoke Isreal for even more justifiable land grabbing as an act of security.

The only thing standing between peace is the US support of Isreal, it's quite obvious there isn't a lot of pressure coming down for them to resolve the situation.