Israel...what to do when you no longer can claim moral high ground

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

While not always the best source, in this case from what I can tell it is accurate in what was offered and wanted. I mean the purpose of a negotiation is to compromise between two parties, it always seems like the Palestinians refuse to compromise... you never get 100% of what you want even if you feel its rightfully yours in peace talks for god sakes. The war ended in 1967, to get ANYTHING back is a big improvement over the current state of being.

I think you need to do some more research in this arena.

Remember this past years conflicts were spun as "Hamas breaking the truce"...when in fact Israel never started to cooperate under the terms (ie the naval blockade et al).

Israel isn't even complying with UN directives; they keep on building settlements like it doesn't even exist.

[CnCGOD]

Yea I don't get the whole settlement thing, why provoke the issue just to live in fear??

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Etoille

Female logic or your inability to read?

Reread the comment of yours that I quoted and directly responded to, then rethink who "them" refers to :P

Ooooh.. you think I was defending Isreal with those comments... how interesting....

Edit: Or were you thinking my American Indian comments only applied to one side in this centuries old battle for land? Now THAT would be very interesting if you took that point of view.

[Tripamang]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

Yea I don't get the whole settlement thing, why provoke the issue just to live in fear??

Build settlement.
Arabs get mad and attack.
Take land around settlement for security.
Build more settlements
Repeat until there are no more Arabs.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Sunder

Ooooh.. you think I was defending Isreal with those comments... how interesting....

Edit: Or were you thinking my American Indian comments only applied to one side in this centuries old battle for land? Now THAT would be very interesting if you took that point of view.

You're over thinking this. I'll be more clear.

I posted a story about Israel.

Heylel said he has empathy for Israel.

I said I could have empathy for them if they hadn't initiated the violence themselves aka when Israel first showed up there as a country.

You said hey, what about American Indians. (Native Americans would like to have a word with you about pacification in the face of murdering, swindling, lying, cheating invaders.)

I said I never said that I didn't have empathy for what happened to American Indians in this country.

Has it been too long a day already? Because I think you think you're driving at something and I'm not following. I'm not getting up at 6am to bake stuff for the office again. Kills me.

[Sunder]

So you have empathy for the Native American, but not Israeli or Palestinian. Fair enough. I have no empathy for either side fighting over Isreal either, but for any American to stand up and say one side of this stupid battle for land is right/wrong over the other because of tactics they use in this "war" is so horrifically hypocritical vis-a-vie what the U.S. itself has done in the name of Manifest Destiny.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Sunder

So you have empathy for the Native American, but not Israeli or Palestinian. Fair enough. I have no empathy for either side fighting over Isreal either, but for any American to stand up and say one side of this stupid battle for land is right/wrong over the other because of tactics they use in this "war" is so horrifically hypocritical vis-a-vie what the U.S. itself has done in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Totally agree. Sounds like we're on the same page.

I just tend to bag on Israel more because they play the victim and you know me and hypocrisy...we don't get along.

[spronk]

I forgot who said it but theres a quote that everyone knows what will ultimately happen; a two state system living in relative peace like every other country sharing borders in the world -- the only real question at this point is how many dead bodies on each side will it take to get to that position.

To me the two interesting things are (1) the growth rate of arabs inside israel and palestine, they have more kids than jewish families so numerically the israelis are on the losing side, (2) when will the palestinian gandhi/MLK come around?

Sure, the palestines have some sympathy, mostly in Europe, but if they really tried a nonviolent resistance approach the US would be forced to neuter Israel (sorry guys no more $10 billion in annual aid!), especially if there was a big civilian massacre. The racist in me just thinks all the middle eastern muslims are bloodthirsty idiots who would rather die and/or get vengeance for (perceived?) historical wrongs than actually get a stable country, but I'm sure there are a few peaceful/moderate arabs, they just aren't heard at all.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by spronk

The racist in me just thinks all the middle eastern muslims are bloodthirsty idiots who would rather die and/or get vengeance for (perceived?) historical wrongs than actually get a stable country, but I'm sure there are a few peaceful/moderate arabs, they just aren't heard at all.

There's nothing racist about sticking to facts.

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

Dude, your country set out to exterminate an entire ethnic group. I can totally understand if it's a touchy subject over there. It should be, y'all fucked up. You can't go around the U.S. saying slavery wasn't so bad either.

But you can go around saying the indian genocide wasn't such a big deal. Same as the turks can say about their little genocide.
The reason you can't say that about slavery is because there's a fuckton of black people in the US and almost all of them are there because their ancestors came on a Mayflower with irons in her hold. Not because you're somewhat conscious of the "guilt".

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

There's nothing racist about sticking to facts.



But you can go around saying the indian genocide wasn't such a big deal. Same as the turks can say about their little genocide.
The reason you can't say that about slavery is because there's a fuckton of black people in the US and almost all of them are there because their ancestors came on a Mayflower with irons in her hold. Not because you're somewhat conscious of the "guilt".

So this is turning into, "who can kill a race the best" epeen contest. Germany still wins, no contest.

[Knucklehead]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Yeah except that you apparently don't realise that we're being breastfed the idea that the holocaust was the worst thing that ever happened, that the jews are really good people who should never have any harm done to them and that a crime targeting a jew is the worst crime one could possibly commit.

You couldn't possibly push yourself out the door here faster than by saying something that is even slightly critical of Israels actions to the wrong people, in fact quite a few politician careers here came to a sudden halt when they criticized Israels action in the middle east.
I bet even saying that Israeli soldiers shouldn't kill 10 year old children would end a career here.

so uh, talk about brainwashing again when you have half a clue.

What a waste of brainwashing. You guys can't do anything subtlety. Engineering, genocide, philosophy, work-ethic, beer brewing, or, it seems, ostracism.

[Celebrindal]

Originally Posted by Tea on tuesday

I've killed for Windows ME before. I'll do it again.

Windows ME would be Christianity in this analogy.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

But you can go around saying the indian genocide wasn't such a big deal.

Oh really? When I have ever said that?

Don't get pissed at people on the Internet because your country still gets bitch slapped over killing millions and ours doesn't. It might not be fair, but that's not what's at issue. You don't absolve guilt by pointing it out in others.

I never took you for a Holocaust apologist. It's really quite surprising.

[Quineloe]

I'm not saying you did, I said you "can".

and I never took you for such an gullible troll victim. Especially with an act I've pulled so often already.

[Heylel Teomim]

Guess you got me then.

Dick