Bernie Madoff gets 150 years in prison

[tjac]

Originally Posted by Soriak

You do know Madoff didn't cause the financial crisis, right? Most of the money he "lost" never actually existed - he simply claimed there were profits that weren't there. I think the Madoff-hate is a little excessive. No doubt the guy defrauded people and foundations, but they all MUST have known what they were getting was too good to be real. The people who invested with him were primarily professionals who should have immediately seen that his consistent return was unlike anything one would expect. Either he was the world's biggest genius, which would have required some proof beyond his word, or it was a scam. They were simply blinded by greed and got defrauded because of it. Tragic, but imo not that big a deal. People get scammed by deals that are too good to be true all the time. This scam just hit people who REALLY should have known better... in fact, people who were well compensated to know better.

What I don't get is that some of these supposed professionals, who - just to reiterate - were paid for their expertise, ended up investing everything with Madoff. Why would I pay someone to invest everything with one guy? That kinda defeats the point of the middleman, whose job it is exactly to prevent that kind of risk exposure.

Madoff is conservatively estimated to have caused over $13B in damages -- that's the invested principal that evaporated, not the bogus returns that he delivered while robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Madoff's returns weren't "too good to be real," as you say. In terms of growth, they weren't phenomenal compared to contemporary funds (like 8-10% when others were achieving 13%), but they were consistent, and that's exactly what conservative investors want. The problem is that no one effectively raised an eyebrow at the straight line consistency.

So, think what you want about rich people getting what they deserve, but Madoff's investors weren't being as blindly greedy as you claim, and his scheme was conservative enough in appearance that even prudent non-profits funds were heavily reliant on him. His investors might have been overexposed as you claim, but no more so than a lot of other players in the market. Anyway, you're conflating exposure to legitimate market risks with exposure to fraud, and those are two very different things.

[Arbuste]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Can't repay everything he lost, but that money is gone anyway. What benefit does society get from locking him up? Is it going to be a deterrent for other people planning to set up a multi-billion dollar ponzi scheme?
Fines for sharing files are out of whack, as are jail sentences - imo they are in general far too long. Prohibit him from running another investment fund and call it a day.

Are you running a ponzi scheme yourself? I can't see any other reason to defend this guy.
This takes place in the country that condemns people to life sentences for smoking pot and shoplifting one too many times. And harsh sentences for that kind of financial scams is pretty much the only sort of regulation the American financial market has.

Now, 15, 30 or 150 years... It's obvious Madoff had to be made an example. But the fact that his clients were stupid, deluded or aware it was not legal does not matter.

Hopefully it does act as a deterrent for a few wannabe white collar criminals. What's really crazy is that laws are so lenient in Europe.

[EmiliaEQ]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Ridiculous sentence - I'd give him a fine and, at most, 2 years of house arrest. Why should taxpayers pay to lock him up? He's not a threat to anyone as nobody is going to trust him with their money again

I wonder how many years a black guy caught stealing 2 ipod at a wallmart would get ...

Make an example out of this fucker, 1500 years.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by EmiliaEQ

I wonder how many years a black guy caught stealing 2 ipod at a wallmart would get ...

Make an example out of this fucker, 1500 years.

Soriak's claim is based on the fallacious premise that Madoff won't ever do any damage, which is rather naive to begin with.

[dy fey]

Originally Posted by EmiliaEQ

I wonder how many years a black guy caught stealing 2 ipod at a wallmart would get ...

Make an example out of this fucker, 1500 years.

yah! and we can castrate his children! rabble rabble rabble

[Cad]

Deterrence is only one theory of criminal punishment. There's also rehabilitation (which is probably worthless in this case as he'll never be trusted financially again even if he goes unpunished), incapacitation, and retribution. Incapacitation assumes the person is just bad and we are better off keeping them away from society - probably not the case here, for most purposes he seems pretty harmless.

HOWEVER, there's still retribution. This fucker cost a lot of people a lot of money. Money that represents their time, their energy, their loved one's futures. I fully support destroying what future he has left in retribution for the harm he has caused. Perhaps it will have some deterring effect also if Madoff is made to bust rocks in a gulag somewhere as a white collar criminal. The whole idea of "Club Fed" needs to go away, these white collar criminals need to be punished as severely as any violent criminal.

[Lyenae]

Stop being so fucking blind. Madoff is a scapegoat right now. Everyone is focusing on what this investor did, meanwhile politicians are fucking people over 10x harder and no one does anything about it.

[Juvarisx]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

Stop being so fucking blind. Madoff is a scapegoat right now. Everyone is focusing on what this investor did, meanwhile politicians are fucking people over 10x harder and no one does anything about it.

Too much Glenn Beck

[dy fey]

Originally Posted by Cad

The whole idea of "Club Fed" needs to go away, these white collar criminals need to be punished as severely as any violent criminal.

so how much do you have to steal before it equals rape? i can't buy into this. they're called "white collar" because their crimes are inherently different. there's a distinct seperation that stands between swindling money and attempted murder. execute a horse-thief... execute a car-thief? it doesn't translate, and the crime isn't comparable in modern america. madoff got away with a fuckload for a long time, but we shouldn't use the exception to make the rule.

[Warrian]

I'd rather get raped than lose my life's savings. Fuck you assholes.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Warrian

I'd rather get raped than lose my life's savings. Fuck you assholes.

The people who lost money to Madoff were greedy and bottom line, put all their eggs in one basket. If you have more than 20% exposure to anything you deserve what you get. And yes, 20% more to one investment 'firm', even if you are in control of your investments is exposure.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by dy fey

so how much do you have to steal before it equals rape? i can't buy into this. they're called "white collar" because their crimes are inherently different. there's a distinct seperation that stands between swindling money and attempted murder. execute a horse-thief... execute a car-thief? it doesn't translate, and the crime isn't comparable in modern america. madoff got away with a fuckload for a long time, but we shouldn't use the exception to make the rule.

Why should the punishment for theft be any different because you did it by deception and clever financial planning rather than at night in a bank vault? The relevant point is the damage done by the theft. Madoff stole and squandered 13 Billion dollars. He should do at least the time a bank robber would have done for the same crime.

[dy fey]

Originally Posted by Cad

Why should the punishment for theft be any different because you did it by deception and clever financial planning rather than at night in a bank vault? The relevant point is the damage done by the theft. Madoff stole and squandered 13 Billion dollars. He should do at least the time a bank robber would have done for the same crime.

you said violent criminal not an hour ago.. i quoted it. it's the quote from the post you just quoted me from. robbing a bank at night wasn't the argument. lets go back to that before we start down this new road you're on

[tjac]

Originally Posted by dy fey

so how much do you have to steal before it equals rape? i can't buy into this. they're called "white collar" because their crimes are inherently different. there's a distinct seperation that stands between swindling money and attempted murder. execute a horse-thief... execute a car-thief? it doesn't translate, and the crime isn't comparable in modern america. madoff got away with a fuckload for a long time, but we shouldn't use the exception to make the rule.

The crimes are called "white collar" because they are committed by professionals who intentionally abuse their professional (fiduciary) capacities. I suppose a plumber who defrauds a customer would be committing a "blue collar" crime

Anyway, the collar color doesn't distinguish fraud from rape. The physical contact does. Both crimes' damages can still be measured in dollars, so they're not as "inherently different" or incomparable as you're making them out to be.

[Frax]

Originally Posted by Warrian

I'd rather get raped than lose my life's savings. Fuck you assholes.

0.o

Anyways, Madoff shouldn't be going to prison at all.



He should have been taken down to Wall Street and shot in front of the NYSE and left on the curb for some bums to take his shoes.