Catholic Excommunication Backwardness

[Torvon]

Originally Posted by Brikker

I'd have something like a 3-year old right now if me and my wife hadn't decided on abortion. Neither of us would have a bachelor's or a masters, and we'd both probably be working bullshit jobs making minimum wage somewhere while the kid was raised by its grandparents.

Yea, I'd rather wait.

If the kid was being "raised by its grandparents" why wouldn't you be able to get your degrees? That's cool though, at least you killed it while it was young. Now you don't have to worry about that little inconvenience.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by sachemsiouxx

It doesnt matter what you think of abortion.
It matters if you think your point of view should be shoved down people's throats because they dont know whats right/good/moral/adequate and you do.
Rest is just bullshit self justification that you serve yourself and the people around to convince yourself that you are not a preaching fascist but an englightened humanist.
Fyi we dont care about it.

A succinct message, well put. If you already agree with it, that is. There is a core flaw with this line of reasoning though. It makes the assumption that there is nothing wrong with aborting a fetus.

Many people do not agree with that tenet, and if you don't readily assume that a fetus is no more significant than the garbage you threw out yesterday, then this suddenly becomes a fairly ridiculous statement. It may as well just say this:

Originally Posted by sachemsiouxx

It doesnt matter what you think of murder.
It matters if you think your point of view should be shoved down people's throats because they dont know whats right/good/moral/adequate and you do.
Rest is just bullshit self justification that you serve yourself and the people around to convince yourself that you are not a preaching fascist but an englightened criminal.
Fyi we dont care about it.

If you believe that murder is wrong on a basic level, then you are now reading your own message from your opposition's point of view. See what I'm getting at here?

There are certain things that just seem like common sense, and we as a society DO think that our point of view on them should be shoved down other people's throats. Under penalty of death in many cases. And we believe that this is right without question. Me, you, everybody else. Rape, Murder, Incest, Theft, Arson, blah blah blah. There is a veritable(and literal) library of things like this. The real issue here is that a large group of Americans see Abortion in the same light.

All that being said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and I honestly don't really care about the issue much one way or another. I won't be getting a woman pregnant until I want a child, seems like the obvious solution to me. What other people do is their own business, it doesn't effect me. And to be blunt, it's hard for me to care about a fetus when the low value that we as a world place on human life is so abundantly obvious in so many countries. When it comes down to the cold hard truth, Americans care more about how long they had to wait at a McDonald's drive through because they ordered more Chicken McNuggets than they had cooked than they do about how many human beings starved in this world or how many fetuses were aborted during that time. Even the pro-lifers.

[Snugglebear]

[quote=krozman;1345553]

Originally Posted by OneofOne

This is something I can get 100% behind. On one hand I agree you can't *make* a woman get an abortion against her will, but the father currently having no say is BS. That's a good compromise./QUOTE]

The flaw in this argument is that a pregnant woman thinks rationally. They don't. The mere idea of putting pressure on a pregnant woman to either have a baby or lose income is unconscionable. Keep your dick in your pants and maybe you won't lose out. The idea of a father not having rights is the lesser of two evils perhaps, but does not give your argument legitimacy. Besides, many women do give up income in exchange of termination of visitation rights, etc.

Not touching the "Whether the baby has a soul, is immoral, etc" argument. Seems everyone's answer depends on where you draw the line on your own morally relativistic hyprocrisy. Just try and worry about treating others with a little common sense and respect and all you baby killers and bible thumpers will die off with the dodo.

But if you don't want to be a part of the child's life and pay mandatory childcare money, why not allow the father to opt out? In my state there is a law that requires a man to pay a minimum monthly amount to the mother. It seems like the man has no choice in the matter. And no, I don't trust a pregnant woman (or any crazy woman) with some 'gentleman's agreement' where you just don't pay. She could get pissed later and demand 2 years worth of child support!

[Chrisb3]

Sick bastards, pro choice is an indefensible position. The word fetus is being used an excuse to make murder acceptable.

Now we are OK 'killing' sperm/eggs and not OK with killing babies. We have to find a compromise in between.

Anything after 20 Weeks is murder because a "fetus" can be born and live. IMO Abortions should only be available in the first few weeks when it's just a "big period" (if at all), or if the mother's life is in danger.

The worst thing in this thread is the guy who exchanged the life of his child to get a degree for himself and his wife. I hope you did it fucking quickly, because if you got anywhere near 20 weeks then your wife is going to hell.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

your wife is going to hell.

Don't presume your belief in hell extends to the rest of us. Plenty of right thinking folks out there don't belief in your lake of fire.

[Alyssarie]

This is fucking disgusting, but not surprising, it is the Catholic church :/

[Zerai]

Hell is where the party is going to be. Given the arcane retarded rules of religion, there is no fucking way anyone is going to pass them. You clearly will forget to repent a few things.

[Sabolin]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

Sick bastards, pro choice is an indefensible position. The word fetus is being used an excuse to make murder acceptable.

Yes, because killing a "parasite" (that must be a better word than "fetus") that can't live outside of the mother's body is the same thing as murder.

You and your kind are what is wrong with this country.

[Chrisb3]

Originally Posted by Sabolin

Yes, because killing a "parasite" (that must be a better word than "fetus") that can't live outside of the mother's body is the same thing as murder.

You and your kind are what is wrong with this country.

That's some self loathing right there, calling yourself a parasite. 20 Week old "Parasites" can live outside the mother's body you know.

I'm not religious at all but if hell existed there are lots of people in this thread going there, including the pope.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Sabolin

Yes, because killing a "parasite" (that must be a better word than "fetus") that can't live outside of the mother's body is the same thing as murder.

You and your kind are what is wrong with this country.

Well, he's what's wrong with England. But yeah, his kind is what's wrong with this country.

Look, there's a lot of fucking people in this world who aren't taking responsibility for raising their child to become productive members of society, either by choice, or by lack of ability. A single mom who's sperm donor bailed the minute he found out she was pregnant, who's incapable of providing the attention and care that child needs to grow and develop into a useful human being that won't perpetuate the same mistakes as his/her mother, isn't what I'd call a good quality of life. I know in everyone's little fucking utopia there's no drug abuse, alcohol abuse, spousal abuse, minimum wage jobs, lack of nutrition, lack of education or any other negative parts of society, but that's just not the fucking case. And until we start putting a higher value on fixing those kinds of problems than we put on killing brown people halfway around the world, that's never going to change.

The religious right CREATES the abortion problem by outright REFUSING to allow their children to be educated in safe sex practices. They're against fixing a problem they create, and they're against the solutions to the problem as well. You can't call "Abstinence" a safe sex program, because it's fucking bullshit, and every single one of you knows it. You get 2 young adults together in a dark place and there are certain things that are going to happen, no matter how much you think it won't. But god forbid you teach kids that condoms and the pill could prevent decisions like this having to be made. If you got off your high horse and started addressing the problem instead of the solution, you'd probably cut the abortion rate in this country by 75% in the span of a generation.

It's kinda humorous actually. Religious right doesn't want children to get sex education. They assume their children just won't have sex until they're married. Then they're against abortion when the children do get pregnant WAY too early, and since the religious right are majority Republicans, they're de-facto against welfare and programs to help single mothers and low income people...the vast majority of which are young people with children. Think about it, fucking morons. People who are 26, done with school, and making 60k+ a year aren't the ones getting pregnant with children they can't afford. It's the 16 year olds who are now stuck with the unfortunate consequences of one bad decision and are doing shit jobs for minimum wage and not being around to raise their children, perpetuating the problem.

You idiots CAUSE the problem. You're AGAINST the solution, and you're AGAINST STOPPING THE PROBLEM FROM CONTINUING.

[Chrisb3]

Lol I'm not actually part of the religious right, I'm an English Liberal; and our most "right wing" party is far to the left of the Democrats. I'm probably as far away from the US religious right than you can get.

I just have the capability to make up my own mind, and guess what? Abortion is wrong. It isn't even a party issue here, they have free votes on law changes in this area with no pressure from any party.
Why does valuing the life of unborn children automatically make you a religious nut?

The world isn't black and white, I'm anti-abortion, anti-abstinence, pro sex education and pro condoms.

[Sabolin]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

That's some self loathing right there, calling yourself a parasite. 20 Week old "Parasites" can live outside the mother's body you know.

I'm not religious at all but if hell existed there are lots of people in this thread going there, including the pope.

I'm fine with using the word fetus, but you seem to have a problem with it.

[Simas]

I dont view abortion as murder but granting that for the sake of argument it still seems one can appeal to self defense.

Id wager a number of pro-lifers do not have an issue with killing an intruder that comes into their home. Even if the intruder does not have a weapon and is only attempting to rob the victim, as opposed to attempting to kill them, many believe its ok to attack the intruder with deadly force.

One can argue abortion is the same. Aborting a fetus that would kill a mother is usually accepted. Its the intruder with the gun. Yet people find it immoral to abort a fetus that would only "rob" the mother. People say carry the child to term and put it up for adoption, ie do no harm. But thats like saying one is morally compelled to run from an intruder in their home.

I guess the rebuttal would be an intruder choose to invade one's home and as such is morally open to any harm then done. A fetus did not. Seems irrelavant to me though. Id kill a hypnotized, compelled intruder just as quickly as I would one acting of his own accord.

Anyways arguing about abortion on the internet is stupid but i was just curious how one could reconcile self defense against an unarmed home invader being moral if abortion is immoral? Or if one must carry a fetus to term then must one also run from an intruder?

The fruther go down the road, anticipating the "you had sex so the fetus was invited in" stuff, say the house is unlocked.

[Chrisb3]

Originally Posted by Sabolin

I'm fine with using the word fetus, but you seem to have a problem with it.

You seem to identify yourself with a parasite instead of "unborn child".

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

Lol I'm not actually part of the religious right, I'm an English Liberal; and our most "right wing" party is far to the left of the Democrats. I'm probably as far away from the US religious right than you can get.

I just have the capability to make up my own mind, and guess what? Abortion is wrong. It isn't even a party issue here, they have free votes on law changes in this area with no pressure from any party.
Why does valuing the life of unborn children automatically make you a religious nut?

The world isn't black and white, I'm anti-abortion, anti-abstinence, pro sex education and pro condoms.

Well, I wasn't really addressing you, because like I said, you're not what's wrong with this country, your kind is.

And your kind votes Republican, despite any other disagreements with the platform of said party. So, for the bunch of americans to whom abortion is an overriding, must stop issue, they :

Vote against abortion.
Vote against sex education that would lead to less abortions
Vote against "socialism" that would help people who kept their children, despite it leading to a low quality of life for themselves and the kids, that would, again, lead to less abortions.

They basically ensure that the problem perpetuates itself by voting for people based upon ONE issue that is in complete contrast with the rest of the party's agenda.