American's becoming less Christian

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Valishar

Actually, if you want to be a real philosophical skeptic, there's no proof of that either.

our perception of it exists. that's all you can say. there we go!

[Neferata]

Cool lets discuss our belly buttons next.

[Vatoreus]

I don't believe in god or a god. I do however think that Atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity and Islam. It's a religion of non-belief. You claim to have knowledge (there is no god) you condemn Christians who claim to have knowledge (there is a god).

There is no proof one way or the other, to claim you're right without evidence to back it up is just silly.

[Plaeroma]

The article I read about this (can't find the link anywhere) said that while religion is down in America, Evangelicals have gone up quite a bit.

Anyway, I have a question for those who are religious and pray. What is the purpose of prayer? I only see three possible outcomes for a prayer - a) God ignores it in favor of doing what God wills or b) God's actions are at least partially dictated by the the requests of humans or c) God answers your prayer because God was going to do that anyway. Option B doesn't sound very hot to me. Options A and C make prayer ineffective. Does it just make you feel good to do it and that's the purpose?

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

I don't believe in god or a god. I do however think that Atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity and Islam. It's a religion of non-belief. You claim to have knowledge (there is no god) you condemn Christians who claim to have knowledge (there is a god).

There is no proof one way or the other, to claim you're right without evidence to back it up is just silly.

Atheism is the absence of belief. That is true atheism. A lot of us just argue because it's amusing and easy to punch holes in people's religious beliefs.

Religion is claiming a fact. So a lot of people mistakenly claim atheism is like a counter argument to said fact. When really it's like religious person coming up and saying 'GOD IS AWESOME' and the atheist saying 'that's nice. This toast is pretty awesome.' and just moving on.

It's really a fact of our culture that so many people believe in god that not believing is considered by some, such as yourself, as it's own religion. But it's not. It's no different than you not believing Joe down the street saw aliens. But I don't see you calling Alien deniers a religion. If I don't believe the Mayan Calendar misunderstanding saying the world is going to end in 2012...am I in a Mayan Calendar Denying Religion?

Atheism shouldn't even be a term.

[kasey]

Originally Posted by sentagur

The only thing this is going to accomplish is that the radicals on all sides will become more entrenched and violent.

They will see decline in religion as a slip in morality and one step closer to hell.

They will feel cornered (the only sane people in a crazy word) and they will start lashing out on an even bigger scale.

I hope I am wrong

And then we can finally get rid of this stupid dogma that each individual is a single unique snowflake with brilliant ideas and a precious opinion. NO, your opinion is shit and worthless and you are not qualified to actually have an opinion about things like a stimulus package UNLESS you actually know (at least to a certain degree, how about short-ebook degree without test/examen) what they are talking about.

I came to this conclusion when i argued with about 10 left wing nuts about economics. Noone of them had any viable opinion. It was all shit breed out of shit with no sense nor substance. They dont care if their opinions are prooven or if it might be unfair. They dont care to validate or verify anything.

Democracy and its voters always reminds me of the relationship between parents and kids. ONly with the small addition that the kids are the one in a position of power not the parents. "Hey do you want this healthy meal or this lollypop who will hurt you later?" ya right.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Zerai

Atheism is the absence of belief. That is true atheism. A lot of us just argue because it's amusing and easy to punch holes in people's religious beliefs.

Religion is claiming a fact. So a lot of people mistakenly claim atheism is like a counter argument to said fact. When really it's like religious person coming up and saying 'GOD IS AWESOME' and the atheist saying 'that's nice. This toast is pretty awesome.' and just moving on.

It's really a fact of our culture that so many people believe in god that not believing is considered by some, such as yourself, as it's own religion. But it's not. It's no different than you not believing Joe down the street saw aliens. But I don't see you calling Alien deniers a religion. If I don't believe the Mayan Calendar misunderstanding saying the world is going to end in 2012...am I in a Mayan Calendar Denying Religion?

Atheism shouldn't even be a term.

I think you missed the part where I said I didn't believe in god, but to be more clear on that, I also don't believe there isn't. I can't claim knowledge one way or the other since there is a significant lack of evidence on either side. I'm talking about militant atheists who claim there is no god. The people who claim their non-belief in something is somehow better than somebodies belief in something.

[Tortfeasor]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

Evolution caused Religion?! Oh fuck.

/mindblown

[Plaeroma]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

The people who claim their non-belief in something is somehow better than somebodies belief in something.

I imagine than anyone who has ever studied epistemology had their brain explode from this.

[Tortfeasor]

Originally Posted by Dumar

sorry i'll be more clear. !!!~ god is illogical if you use the constructs of science ~!!!

God is also illogical if you use the creeds of christianity, especially the nicene or the athanasian creeds. God is one but god is three, etc etc. Chock full of assertions that, logically, are holding as true at the same time "X" and "Not X."

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Plaeroma

I imagine than anyone who has ever studied epistemology had their brain explode from this.

The only thing is, both sides are claiming knowledge neither can actually have. There is no evidence pointing to one or another. Lack of evidence isn't really evidence in and of itself. Atoms still existed before we had evidence of their existence.

I sit on the fence when it comes to this "does god exist?" bullshit, simply because there is nothing to support either side. I will say I hate how the religious have held us back from great achievements in humanity though.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

I think you missed the part where I said I didn't believe in god, but to be more clear on that, I also don't believe there isn't. I can't claim knowledge one way or the other since there is a significant lack of evidence on either side. I'm talking about militant atheists who claim there is no god. The people who claim their non-belief in something is somehow better than somebodies belief in something.

Your stance is irrelevant to the point I was discussing. That is, your assertion that atheism is it's own religion. The lack of evidence on the atheist's side is irrelevant. The only one with a burden of proof is the one making a claim. That would be religion. Our culture has brainwashed us into just accepting religion as valid without any merit, which leads people, like you, to inaccurately judge that atheism is a religion. Which it isn't.

I also discussed the militant atheist perspective. It's so ridiculously easy to poke holes in modern day organized religion that it can be a lot of fun. And it's also a very charged topic..so can be very profitable (Dawkins and Maher have definitely made bank off it to mention just a few). But militant atheism has mainly arose to combat religion asserting itself into our laws which directly impact our lives. You have to fight fire with fire.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

I don't believe in god or a god. I do however think that Atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity and Islam. It's a religion of non-belief. You claim to have knowledge (there is no god) you condemn Christians who claim to have knowledge (there is a god).

There is no proof one way or the other, to claim you're right without evidence to back it up is just silly.

You're missing the point of atheism. It's not a religion of non-belief. All it's suggesting is that current evidence does not support the existence of a god, and therefore the likely conclusion is that no god exists. Were anyone to provide tangible, scientific evidence of the existence of god, it will be folded into the paradigm.

And yes, non-belief in something that has no factual evidence *is* better than believing in a lie. There is no "significant evidence that atheism is wrong", there's just unexplainable phenomena that science is working to describe. Militant atheists are annoying as shit, I'll give you that, but saying that both views should be equally valid from an atheist point of view is silly.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Zerai

Your stance is irrelevant to the point I was discussing. That is, your assertion that atheism is it's own religion. The lack of evidence on the atheist's side is irrelevant. The only one with a burden of proof is the one making a claim. That would be religion. Our culture has brainwashed us into just accepting religion as valid without any merit, which leads people, like you, to inaccurately judge that atheism is a religion. Which it isn't.

I also discussed the militant atheist perspective. It's so ridiculously easy to poke holes in modern day organized religion that it can be a lot of fun. And it's also a very charged topic..so can be very profitable (Dawkins and Maher have definitely made bank off it to mention just a few). But militant atheism has mainly arose to combat religion asserting itself into our laws which directly impact our lives. You have to fight fire with fire.

I agree with you on the front that it is easy and fun to poke holes in the loosely woven fabric of religious faith and belief. Now, my point is not directed at the, I'll say "true" atheists that honestly just don't believe. I guess it isn't the fault of these groups of people that people who actively fight to say there is no god (which is a claim and therefore subject to the burden of proof requirement) are lumped into the same category as them.

I say we create a new category for these people who do nothing but muck up the actual atheist agenda.

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

but saying that both views should be equally valid from an atheist point of view is silly.

I guess here is the problem. I'm not saying both should be equally valid, but equally invalid. I understand the stance of true atheist belief, my quarrel, again, is against the group of people who claim to be atheist but claim to know god does not exist.
Shall we here and now create a completely new designation between the two separate groups?

[Dumar]

what i try to make people realize is logic is a way of thinking (a very useful one). but the universe doesn't care how you deduce the nature of its existence. it doesn't care whether you can logically prove anything in it exists or not. there's nothing intrinsically qualitative that exists in nature called 'logic'; it's a set of constructs created by humanity to describe what we can observe.

humans are incredibly, incredibly, -incredibly-, INCREDIBLY biased creatures (did i stress that enough?). we ascertain and apply principles that seemingly show us relationships among things, cause and effect; we attribute almost everything to a reason. this reason for things is pretty much the foundation of logic. but what i'm trying to make you see here is that there is no 'reason' in nature. it just is, whether we 'reason' about it or not.

if you use the rules of the game of science, religion is illogical. faith is illogical. god is illogical because there is no proof. the rules of the game of science require proof, observation, hypothesis, testing, theory. that's the game, a human game that's proven useful over centuries. that doesn't mean that those rules can apply to EVERYTHING, especially something that claims (true or not) to be out of bounds of anything provable or observable.

so you see, whether your logic tells you god exists or not, is not only useless, it doesn't do any good of actually answering the question. you're at the same point you started--nowhere.

re: on atheists. with the unfortunate fact that we have incomplete knowledge (understatement of the year), there will always be belief in anything that claims the nature of existence. if you say 'i don't know', then that means you're not an atheist. =P