Doctor who blamed autism on vaccine fixed data

[CyrusReij]

Originally Posted by Lumie

Again, extreme gullibility. Of course they have to discontinue it and make it seem like it was a success otherwise you'd HAVE to question it. At some point they have to have something viewed as a "success" otherwise everyone would begin to question whether they actually worked or not. Just like they did with polio by introducing the vaccine when reported case were already down by about 40% and steadily declining. In fact, most re-occuring cases were caused by the vaccine itself. They are like magicians and you're just falling for their sleight of hand.

Hi Lumie! While we're on the topic of conspiracy theories, I think one of yours fell through recently, I'm sorry for your loss. But I would really love to see your backpedaling on this particular thread that you started: Hate • View topic - There will not be an election in 2008

Edit: Since he edited his main post sometime back AFTER the election, essentially he claimed that the NWO was moving on in and that there would be no election as our new alien overlords were ready to set up shop. Then after that he claims there would be no inauguration, cept that one happened too. Oh and lest I forget, he also claimed that before the end of '08 there would be an event 10x the magnitude of 9/11 happening again (I think he may have pulled that one out on this forum too). Keep on trying Lumie! Even Nostradamus got some of them right eventually!

[MrSpitz]

In response to Gauss and Arkkis;

Yep, the single biggest thing I hate about science is how much of a politic game it is. That was one of the reasons I wanted to get in, because I thought it was 'pure', but it's such a huge circle jerk. I don't get it. And you don't have to fudge your data to get into the top journals, but you do have to know someone it seems, or just have this incredible story which you stumbled upon.

But still, publication bias aside, I can understand how with oversight some editors really stick to a close group of core minds and grow it out from their post docs and so on and so on, because you have no idea about how to trust what a 'stranger' is sending you, it's all just dots on a screen. So at least by being so discriminative, you at least do so with people you are familiar with (or who studied under someone you were familiar with). There's no way to verify the methods regardless, so you review things blind. I understand that part of it, I hate it because I am not in that club, but I understand it.

What baffles me is, on that logic, how does a Lancet even accept this paper? Money? Maybe. But if you are going to have an old boy's club routinely pull 85% of your articles so you can trust them, can't you possibly look at a clinical study BASED ON 12 PATIENTS and reject it even if the former editor-in-chief conducted it? That defeats, what I thought at least, was the purpose of the cronyism, to have some control on quality through a degree of trust.

But maybe I am wrong, maybe they just want their people to succeed and it doesn't matter. But 12 patients.... unless 9 of them were growing third arms thats just laughable.

[Snugglebear]

It's sad, he had a statistically insignificant sample, but he still had to doctor the data. It seems almost like it would've been easier to find a bunch of children who had their immunizations and then came down with some sort of mental/GI symptom in the weeks afterward, that'd be like shooting fish in a bucket considering how often kids get immunizations these days.

[chu]

Thing is...things like this MUST be published because they could become very important. The fact that it was doctored is unfortunate but such is life.

When people doctor things in Nature/Science/Cell more often then not it is found out because these papers are hot topics and many labs around the world are following up on it. It is quickly found out to be fake (ex. the couple of nature papers from that group from Korea that happened last year).

The more upsetting things is falsification in journals with lower impact factor because these things are often NOT repeated and retractions rarely if ever occur.

[MrSpitz]

No, the thing is because such implications are so far reaching and important you should absolutely make sure you get it right.

How could you possibly justify such a small sample size with an argument like that? Jesus.

[Elurin]

Originally Posted by dy fey

i completely agree with the argument that parents who do not vaccinate are fucking retarded. i can honestly sympathize -to a small degree- with their concerns, however, after having been vaccinated against anthrax. the government deserves to be questioned. the greater good comes first, as they should see it, but the individual is unique.
i guess what i'm saying is that we know very little about ourselves.

I only really questioned the anthrax thing after the entire sequence of events:

1) Gov't gives anthrax vaccine to everyone
2) FDA says fuck that noise, shit ain't safe
3) Gov't stops giving vaccine
4) FDA approves anthrax vaccine
5) Gov't gives vaccine again
6) FDA says wait a minute, we're not sure
7) Gov't says vaccine is compulsory
8) FDA says we're good again
9) Gov't makes vaccine mandatory again

[Koivu]

Originally Posted by Elurin

I
7) Gov't says vaccine is compulsory
8) FDA says we're good again
9) Gov't makes vaccine mandatory again

I realize it's been a few years since my English classes, but don't "mandatory" and "compulsory" mean essentially the same thing?

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by CyrusReij

Hi Lumie! While we're on the topic of conspiracy theories, I think one of yours fell through recently, I'm sorry for your loss. But I would really love to see your backpedaling on this particular thread that you started: Hate • View topic - There will not be an election in 2008

Edit: Since he edited his main post sometime back AFTER the election, essentially he claimed that the NWO was moving on in and that there would be no election as our new alien overlords were ready to set up shop. Then after that he claims there would be no inauguration, cept that one happened too. Oh and lest I forget, he also claimed that before the end of '08 there would be an event 10x the magnitude of 9/11 happening again (I think he may have pulled that one out on this forum too). Keep on trying Lumie! Even Nostradamus got some of them right eventually!

See, you're falling into the trap of thinking that Lumie actually believes the crap he posts.

[CyrusReij]

Originally Posted by Itzena

See, you're falling into the trap of thinking that Lumie actually believes the crap he posts.

He's been doing it for ohhh, atleast 6 or 7 years since I first met him on Sullon Zek, thats either a mental condition for trolling or a true believer, you decide.

[chu]

Originally Posted by MrSpitz

No, the thing is because such implications are so far reaching and important you should absolutely make sure you get it right.

How could you possibly justify such a small sample size with an argument like that? Jesus.

Data is data. It's an important issue. If this was absolutely true, should he have done a large long term study to absolutely confirm the results to significance, while children are getting vaccinated around the world?

Give me a fucking break.

[chaos]

Um... no, data is not data. I could pick 5 guys who got HIV from a blood transfusion and do a study claiming that all blood transfusions cause AIDS. And it would horribly inaccurate and would not benefit anyone. Except me, I would make lots of money and be awesome all the time.

[Arakkis]

Yeah, the implications of misinformation can be quite profound. I just heard on NPR tonight that people in a single country in Africa stopped getting their kids vaccinated for polio because there was a rumor that it caused AIDS. As a consequence, polio has made a resurgence in over 23 countries.

Now this was from a simple rumor. Imagine if there was a published study of a handful of people that might have possibly contracted AIDS at around the same time they got vaccinated. Rampant spread of a debilitating disease that is completely preventable.

Bioethics is a hell of a tough field.

[MrSpitz]

Originally Posted by chu

Data is data. It's an important issue. If this was absolutely true, should he have done a large long term study to absolutely confirm the results to significance, while children are getting vaccinated around the world?

Give me a fucking break.

Are you kidding me? Data is data? Do you understand the role of science at all? Aren't they supposed to have a superior education system in Canada, and it produced you?

Twelve patients.... just think about that genius. 12 fucking people and from that we are supposed to draw conclusions about millions of people, a large proportion of which probably were available for a retrospective study due to their inclusion in other epi. studies. Twelve fucking patients..... data is only valuable to important problems in so much as it is collected accurately and based on either sound methods or sample sizes.

[chu]

Originally Posted by MrSpitz

Are you kidding me? Data is data? Do you understand the role of science at all? Aren't they supposed to have a superior education system in Canada, and it produced you?

Twelve patients.... just think about that genius. 12 fucking people and from that we are supposed to draw conclusions about millions of people, a large proportion of which probably were available for a retrospective study due to their inclusion in other epi. studies. Twelve fucking patients..... data is only valuable to important problems in so much as it is collected accurately and based on either sound methods or sample sizes.

You're a fucking idiot. He raised an issue that was important that should then have been thoroughly tested by other people. The fact that he fudged data is unfortunate but there was nothing out of line with the publication. You seem to have no clue how publications work in patient medicine.

Reviews can't always judge the integrity of the data; that's for the general scientific population to retest and confirm.

[x1hundredregrets]

Lumie, what can you tell me about the Mansanto Company? I understand they're up to some bad stuff in our hemisphere. Any insight would be appreciated.