Health Care

[Knucklehead]

Originally Posted by AladainAF

US News and World Report is now even quoting the times article and agreeing with it. Perhaps Obama needs to clarify his position? Nothing wrong with that.

An opinion piece by Peter Roff in the US News and World Report is hardly representative of an entire news organization agreeing with that appeal to emotion piece that the Washington Times passed off as a genuine news story. (This is a guy who thinks Palin is the next Reagan.)

Real news explores issues from both sides. It would quote the Republican's stance, delve into the pros and cons of it, and then do the same for the opposition's. Usually this means writing an article longer than your average writing composition student in college would have to.

Instead the Washington Times gives us two page things like: "But Republicans said by pushing to legalize illegal immigrants, Mr. Obama is signaling that those here illegally eventually will get access to taxpayer-funded benefits. " Without bothering to check their own logic. A legalized, formerly illegal, immigrant would be paying taxes, hence they would be enjoying benefits that they will be helping to pay for. (In fact, one might argue this a number of ways: undocumented workers help grown business, which in turn pay more out in taxes as their net profits rise; or employers who continue to employ illegal aliens are hurting our government's tax revenues by doing so and we should target them more than we are now.) And this is only a start.

All sorts of other questions pop into the mind of somebody who hasn't already made up their mind on the issue. Things like: "What kind of losses in tax revenue does the government take due to employers who perpetuate this immigration issue by employing undocumented workers and pay them off the books?" and "How much does saving the life of an illegal immigrant in the emergency room cost hospitals across the country every year?" and "What other ideas are out there for remedying this situation?"

But instead we get into a circle jerk of talking points, which is why this country is so fucked up. Not enough people think for themselves. They just go shopping for news à la carte that appeals to the way they think the world should work. It's sad, and it's hard to take seriously any news organization that's as blatant in posting talking point pieces as the Washington Times is.

[Alamando]

Originally Posted by Haus

My suggestions :
A) Fix the porous border. A wall/fence/whatever. Staff is appropriately with border patrols.

But where would we find the labor force to create such a fence?

[Lonin]

Originally Posted by Alamando

But where would we find the labor force to create such a fence?

I always see these brown guys hanging around outside of the Home Depot looking for work. We should ask them!

[Araysar]

Originally Posted by Lonin

I always see these brown guys hanging around outside of the Home Depot looking for work. We should ask them!

I've had them write a few school essays for me.

[MrGraham]

Question for people against mandatory coverage -

If an uninsured American citizen is in a car accident, knocked unconscious and severely injured and is taken to the ER and undergoes emergency surgery to save his life, what should happen to the bill if he can't pay it?

Should he go broke and file bankruptcy and leave it to the hospital to eat it?

Personally I think mandatory coverage without a big overhaul of insurance practices is a scary thought (not to mention stupidly beneficial to the insurance companies), but I also don't buy the argument that anyone should be able to go without due to the above situation, much like mandatory car insurance.

Honestly curious on people's thoughts on this.

[Heavens_Myst]

Does this person have car insurance if he's at fault or does the other driver if they are at fault?

[MrGraham]

I'm sorry, let's change the scenario to not involve car insurance.

A pedestrian hit by a car in a hit and run.
Or any sudden medical condition besides just an injury such as a clot, aneurysm, lupus, whatever that requires immediate treatment.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by Haus

I live in Texas and I can tell you there needs to be some reform. Mostly I think there needs to be an accessible way for people who want to immigrate to easily do so. OTOH, I think that the borders need to be patrolled and enforced well enough to make sure they use the legal means to immigrate.

Instead you have what we have right now where a stream of people are coming across, they are undocumented, often pay no taxes, yet still end up costing the government money.

My suggestions :
A) Fix the porous border. A wall/fence/whatever. Staff is appropriately with border patrols
B) Make sure there is an affordable and accessible way for people who want to come over for work, or move over and immigrate to do so.
C) Establish a path to legitimate citizenship which makes people agree to pay taxes and earn citizenship if they are here illegally.
D) After a grace period for illegal aliens to get into the program created in point C you start actively enforcing the existing immigration laws and deporting illegal aliens.

Democrats won't support it because they desperately want the Raza vote.
Republicans won't support it because it would cost a good bit of cash, and increase the size of a voting bloc which is quickly turning solidly Democrat.

I can get on board with you, for everything except the fence. You're not a dumb guy, I'm sure you realize the logistics of building a 2700 mile long fence and staffing it with round the clock security. The idea is, and always has been, a whitewash. It's some bullshit that Congressmen get up on tv and talk about, and Lou Dobbs gets all incensed about, and in reality it's just the most ludicrous thing ever.

The key to fixing immigration is fixing Mexico and making it not so much of a shithole that people are willing to trek hundreds of miles through harsh terrain filled with crazy Glenn Beck fans who want to kill them and poison their water (happened in AZ, WWJD) just to work for 3.30 an hour bussing tables and cleaning shit off the restroom floors.

[Knucklehead]

I have never understood the premise of exclusively going after illegal aliens. Nobody crosses the border just to starve to death. They come over to because they can make more money. And what's easier to police: X employers or Y employees?

I think any sane person understands the utter futility of making sure each individual in this country is here legally. Which probably explains some people's feelings that we need a fence. (If you have a fence you can slowly weed out those who don't belong, and they can never return -- because you have a fence.) This is silly, of course, because for every fence there is a ladder -- or tunnel, or fence cutter, etc.

I've always thought the problem with the current conservative strategy for combating illegal aliens shared a lot in common with somebody who just can't be bothered with understanding how ants work, and subsequently cannot rid them from their property.

When you have a problem with a fire ant hill in your yard, do you: A) 'Pick up each ant and drop them into your neighbor's yard?' B) 'Kill the queen?' C) 'Build a better fence around your house?' D) 'Hire people to patrol your fence line and drop any ants they find across into your neighbors yard?' or E) 'All of the above except B.'

It's as if for the preceding question all conservatives instinctually grab a No. 2 pencil and furiously darken in the circle for E without a second thought.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Knucklehead

When you have a problem with a fire ant hill in your yard, do you: A) 'Pick up each ant and drop them into your neighbor's yard?' B) 'Kill the queen?' C) 'Build a better fence around your house?' D) 'Hire people to patrol your fence line and drop any ants they find across into your neighbors yard?' or E) 'All of the above except B.'

To stop illegal immigration we have to assassinate Felipe Calderón?

[Knucklehead]

Well, it doesn't work on every level. I'll grant you that.

If you want to stop the ants, you stop the queen first. The queen gives the ants work (and life but that's beyond the ken of this scenario). Get rid of the work-giver and the ants don't stick around (or continue to live at all, which is beside the point -- but, still, it might sell those on the far right if pitched correctly).

[Heylel Teomim]

Yes but they can't do that because it would require they go after big (and small) business. Republicans aren't intractable about nearly as many things as they claim to be, but they're always on the side of business. Punishing corporations would erode their base so fast they'd sink into quicksand. Much easier to get all redfaced and huffy over the immigrants themselves. They have no clout, no vote, and no voice with which to threaten.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Knucklehead

I have never understood the premise of exclusively going after illegal aliens. Nobody crosses the border just to starve to death. They come over to because they can make more money. And what's easier to police: X employers or Y employees?

I think any sane person understands the utter futility of making sure each individual in this country is here legally. Which probably explains some people's feelings that we need a fence. (If you have a fence you can slowly weed out those who don't belong, and they can never return -- because you have a fence.) This is silly, of course, because for every fence there is a ladder -- or tunnel, or fence cutter, etc.

I've always thought the problem with the current conservative strategy for combating illegal aliens shared a lot in common with somebody who just can't be bothered with understanding how ants work, and subsequently cannot rid them from their property.

When you have a problem with a fire ant hill in your yard, do you: A) 'Pick up each ant and drop them into your neighbor's yard?' B) 'Kill the queen?' C) 'Build a better fence around your house?' D) 'Hire people to patrol your fence line and drop any ants they find across into your neighbors yard?' or E) 'All of the above except B.'

It's as if for the preceding question all conservatives instinctually grab a No. 2 pencil and furiously darken in the circle for E without a second thought.

Wat?

Only way to end illegal immigration is to have Mexico unfuck(drugs, crime, corruption etc.) itself and then place the military on the border. Corporations should be punished if they employ illegals, but as long as Mexico and much of the rest of central/south America is a shit hole you will have illegals pouring over into our borders.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

You have no idea how many agri-businesses rely on migrant workers all over the US. They will never, ever be punished.

[Haus]

Originally Posted by Knucklehead

When you have a problem with a fire ant hill in your yard, do you: A) 'Pick up each ant and drop them into your neighbor's yard?' B) 'Kill the queen?' C) 'Build a better fence around your house?' D) 'Hire people to patrol your fence line and drop any ants they find across into your neighbors yard?' or E) 'All of the above except B.'

So, you're in favor of simply finding a poison that only affects Mexicans and spreading a thick layer of it all along the border? Subsequently we can start sprinkling it in their food and hoping they feed it to those seriously hardcore catholic baby makers back home?

I think your analogy gland is impair sir... seek immediate medical attention.