Health Care

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

So human stupidity justifies greed? At what point do we rise above survival of the fittest?

We're well past that, nearly everyone survives well past reproduction age. What you want is equality while alive, and I guess we'll have that right about the time we stop being human or we're all dead.

[Heavens_Myst]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

Why can't people look at it as "okay, I've made my piece this year, now that I'm secure lets turn my attention to other things..."?

I realize the world will never, ever work that way. Greed is far too strong a motivator. I'm just so tired of hearing how the free market and profit are the universal motivator, when clearly the system is flawed.

You are looking at it as a zero sum game when that is not what it is. If those people just stop like you believe they should the wealth that would have been created from their efforts simply goes up in smoke. The people who continually push to create more and more wealth through their own human capital do everyone a favor because that wealth gets recycled back through the system.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

You are looking at it as a zero sum game when that is not what it is. If those people just stop like you believe they should the wealth that would have been created from their efforts simply goes up in smoke. The people who continually push to create more and more wealth through their own human capital do everyone a favor because that wealth gets recycled back through the system.

But why stop? Presumably you're not doing whatever you do *just* for money, right? Wouldn't the incentive to continue creating wealth and improving the world be self evident to someone visionary enough to build a multi-million or even billion dollar fortune? Isn't that why the truly wealthy all seem to run charities, or are those just for show?

[whatsamattau]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

The people who continually push to create more and more wealth through their own human capital do everyone a favor because that wealth gets recycled back through the system.

Just so you're on the record, you believe in trickle down economics? I mean, it wasn't so long ago that a very substantial portion of that wealth vaporized into thin air in the form of valueless 'paper' far before it ever "recycled through the system". What part of the recycling process was that?

LOL at Cad's anecdotes coming from Doctor's in his family. Yes, let rich people explain to me why their taxes should be lower.

So long as the incentives crowd is here, why doesn't someone explain to me the incentive a resident of the "middle class" has to participate in a system that consistently shifts wealth from their neighborhood to the rich?

[chaos]

The alternative is extreme poverty. We all know (everyone who's being honest) that the game is rigged. But it's the only game in town.

[whatsamattau]

Originally Posted by chaos

The alternative is extreme poverty. We all know (everyone who's being honest) that the game is rigged. But it's the only game in town.

Some balance of socialism and capitalism is an alternative, too.

[chaos]

I mean as far as participating in the system. Even if you see the flaws in the system, not participating in it is not an option. Unless you're Tyler Durden, individuals don't have an impact.

Talking about creating something new, that's different. But still, ultimately, unrealistic.

[Mimirswell]

Very interesting study from the British Medical Journal. It canvassed 2500 treatments and rated them by effectiveness:



Based on actual results, only 36% of treatments are actually more beneficial than detrimental.

Source: Clinical Evidence: The international source of the best available evidence for effective health care

Robert Hanson (an economist) also commented on this study, saying: "Since randomized experiments and cross regional regressions usually find zero correlation between health and medical spending, we should presume that treatments of unknown effectiveness are on average ineffective." He goes on to suggest we could save quite a bit of money by cutting nearly 50% of the current treatments being utilized by doctors.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Talk Radio and Fox News is trying to create the narrative that these staged town hall protests are regular people.









The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, are staging these protests to create a narrative that there is vast public opposition to health care. These are the same groups that ran the anti-Obama tea bagging. This is the anatomy of Republican propaganda.

[Haus]

Looks like some blogger strung together some Obama clips where he mentioned being a supporter of a single payer plan (in front of the AFL-CIO), and then mentions in another interview that we shouldn't expect to phase out private insurance until 15 or 20 years out. Followed up by a nice Barkey Frank quote on "the best way to a single payer system."

YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance


But the white house... Obama vs. Drudge - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com

They White House claims it's a shoop, they can apparently see the pixels. They have seen many shoops before.

We used to think that forums and bloggers were representative a devolution of news media, but apparently the media is just striving to become more like a forum.

[Heylel Teomim]

Much as I hate to reference Bill Maher, he had an interesting segment on his show the other day. He asked his panel why, if it is so horrible, do we provide socialized medical care to all of our veterans through VHA? I thought it was a worthwhile point.

[Haus]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

Much as I hate to reference Bill Maher, he had an interesting segment on his show the other day. He asked his panel why, if it is so horrible, do we provide socialized medical care to all of our veterans through VHA? I thought it was a worthwhile point.

I think it's because the VA hospital system for Veterans is a benefit in repayment of what they did serving the country. It's a payback for services rendered, and because many times the services rendered can leave someone in need of ongoing medical treatment it makes for an appropriate benefit.

Having two uncles who are bordering into retirement and have to rely on the VA hospital system I have seen some of it's manner of working up close and personal. Both of them are in the position that if they had any option other than the VA hospital they would take it. If the VA system is what government regulated health care will look like I do not look forward to it.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Haus

Looks like some blogger strung together some Obama clips where he mentioned being a supporter of a single payer plan (in front of the AFL-CIO), and then mentions in another interview that we shouldn't expect to phase out private insurance until 15 or 20 years out. Followed up by a nice Barkey Frank quote on "the best way to a single payer system."

YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance


But the white house... Obama vs. Drudge - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com

They White House claims it's a shoop, they can apparently see the pixels. They have seen many shoops before.

We used to think that forums and bloggers were representative a devolution of news media, but apparently the media is just striving to become more like a forum.

The Drudge Report is the heart of all Republican propaganda. Drudge gets his narrative from the RNC. Talk radio and Fox News then get their narrative from Drudge and directly from the RNC. Republicans can not intelligently discuss the issues so they try to box every narrative into the small set of so called "principles".

1. If you are not Republican you are a Socialist, Communist, Marxist and not a real American.
2. Minorities are all evil, criminal, or immoral. Muslims, Hispanics, and Blacks are the top 3 to hate the most.
3. If Republicans are in power invasion of privacy is good to stop Muslims. If Democrats are in power then scream "Tyranny" a lot.
4. Guns are good.
5. Muslims are bad.
6. The Bible.
7. The Flag.
8. Everything associated with the government is bad. Ignore the fact that the military, police, fire departments and NASA are government entities.
9. I don't want to pay taxes even for the military, police, fire departments and NASA.
10. Abortion is bad but we should always use the death penalty.
11. "Tax and Spend" is bad but "Borrow and Spend" is good.
12. War is good no matter what the situation. Hate Jews but support any Middle East conflict so we can go to war.

That my friends is how to think like a Republican.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Haus

I think it's because the VA hospital system for Veterans is a benefit in repayment of what they did serving the country. It's a payback for services rendered, and because many times the services rendered can leave someone in need of ongoing medical treatment it makes for an appropriate benefit.

Having two uncles who are bordering into retirement and have to rely on the VA hospital system I have seen some of it's manner of working up close and personal. Both of them are in the position that if they had any option other than the VA hospital they would take it. If the VA system is what government regulated health care will look like I do not look forward to it.

So you're saying their reward for serving their country a shit sandwich?

So why aren't we looking at reforming the VA system, or better yet providing them with an alternative?

[Haus]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

So you're saying their reward for serving their country a shit sandwich?

So why aren't we looking at reforming the VA system, or better yet providing them with an alternative?

They're always talking about improving parts of the VA system. But it's a very big, very old, very entrenched bureaucracy. Those change and improve at a rate usually referred to as "glacial". I won't say it's complete shit, it's definitely better than having no health care which is the situation one of my uncles would be in without it. There are some things they have down pretty well, like electronic medical records and such, but at the same time there are some things like restrictions on what and how much care you can get. Often "what will get you by" can take precedent over "fixing the problem the right way".

It's not the only perk people get for having been in the military, and it was one born of necessity back in the days when a much larger number of veterans returning from war required a lot more care.