Health Care - Page 345

Heylel Teomim · 06-18-2009, 09:45 AM

And he may yet, he's not even at the 6 month mark of his presidency. It could become an issue they bring up for the midterms, you never know. Point is, it costs him too much to come out of the gate swinging. He's taken some time to get a few ducks in a row and to let the economy level out.

After a year, if "nothing" has been done then I'll fuss. At the two year mark, I'll really be pissed. However, I don't expect we'll get that far without seeing movement on this and other issues.

Sharmai · 06-18-2009, 09:56 AM

Obama has come out of the gate moving so fast I think more of us are worried about whether or not hes going to slow down or not. Some issues he didn't have a choice on but others like health care reform that hes going for now he does have a choice on.

Heylel Teomim · 06-18-2009, 10:02 AM

I actually agree. I think he's been very productive, even though many of his goals have not reached their end game yet. There's only so much one can accomplish in the small amount of time he's been in office, and several interest groups are starting to get upset that they haven't been acknowledged yet.

chaos · 06-18-2009, 11:39 AM

Yeah i don't understand that level of criticism from supporters 6 months into his Presidency. I think he's been doing pretty good so far, and I think Bill Maher is pretty much not going to be satisfied no matter what, because he has unrealistic goals. Did anyone seriously think that Obama was going to be elected, and then 6 months later the entire way that the government works would be changed, gay marriage legalized, wars ended and troops at home, drugs decriminalized and policy shifted to treatment, etc etc. A year from now, if he just gives up and stops working, yeah there is an argument. But right now it just sounds like whiny bullshit. He's definitely shifted government about as much as I expected in this kind of timeframe. I think you definitely have to adjust your expectations to meet reality if you were expecting a liberal utopia in 6 months, especially when he is fighting against public opinion on some of these issues and against the entire Republican party and a portion of his own party.

Heylel Teomim · 06-18-2009, 11:44 AM

People still give the President too much credit (and blame) for everything that happens. I swear, sometimes I really do think humans are biologically wired to seek out the rulership of kings. We certainly seem to treat our elected leaders like them.

All of those things you mentioned could have been accomplished under a monarchy or imperial rule, albeit after a bunch of revolts and civil war. Autocratic government has the benefit of cutting through the red tape. It still makes it a fucking terrible idea.

Arative · 06-18-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

Yeah i don't understand that level of criticism from supporters 6 months into his Presidency. I think he's been doing pretty good so far, and I think Bill Maher is pretty much not going to be satisfied no matter what, because he has unrealistic goals. Did anyone seriously think that Obama was going to be elected, and then 6 months later the entire way that the government works would be changed, gay marriage legalized, wars ended and troops at home, drugs decriminalized and policy shifted to treatment, etc etc. A year from now, if he just gives up and stops working, yeah there is an argument. But right now it just sounds like whiny bullshit. He's definitely shifted government about as much as I expected in this kind of timeframe. I think you definitely have to adjust your expectations to meet reality if you were expecting a liberal utopia in 6 months, especially when he is fighting against public opinion on some of these issues and against the entire Republican party and a portion of his own party.

I think a lot of people given Obama's campaign rhetoric were expecting everything to change overnight. I'll be happy if he can just get the government pointed in the right direction in his first year.

There are only 2 things that have disappointed me that he's done, the DoJ's response in the warrantless wiretapping case and him blocking public access to the White House visitor list.

Haus · 06-18-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

Yeah i don't understand that level of criticism from supporters 6 months into his Presidency. I think he's been doing pretty good so far, and I think Bill Maher is pretty much not going to be satisfied no matter what, because he has unrealistic goals. Did anyone seriously think that Obama was going to be elected, and then 6 months later the entire way that the government works would be changed, gay marriage legalized, wars ended and troops at home, drugs decriminalized and policy shifted to treatment, etc etc. A year from now, if he just gives up and stops working, yeah there is an argument. But right now it just sounds like whiny bullshit. He's definitely shifted government about as much as I expected in this kind of timeframe. I think you definitely have to adjust your expectations to meet reality if you were expecting a liberal utopia in 6 months, especially when he is fighting against public opinion on some of these issues and against the entire Republican party and a portion of his own party.

My issues with him aren't the things which are "in progress", it's the promises which he's broken. (Like the revolving door of lobbyists, and posting all laws for review and commentary before signing.)

chaos · 06-18-2009, 11:59 AM

I can totally understand being disappointed in some of his broken promises, for instance the "state secrets" bit or the warrantless wiretapping or the level of transparency. I am, too. What I don't understand is the unrealistic expectations. Like, look at Maher's rant. It's like I was in a time warp and we're in 2010 and nothing has been done on any issue. What did he expect? It's kind of childish.

Sharmai · 06-18-2009, 12:05 PM

Well he's moving so fast that people are starting to expect him to do everything fast and that means do their issues fast to. The knowledge that he has literally been in office only 6 months and had to deal with two MAJOR issues already just flies right over them.

One does wonder when we do that whole "Year 2009 in reflection" thing just how much we are going to be talking about.

Etoille · 06-18-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haus

My issues with him aren't the things which are "in progress", it's the promises which he's broken. (Like the revolving door of lobbyists, and posting all laws for review and commentary before signing.)

If he had promised you a money tree would you be upset that it hasn't been delivered?

He HAS cracked down on lobbyists more than any president in modern history to date and if you seriously thought he was going to post his laws on a message board for commentary then I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you. The system doesn't work like that and anyone who believed that were the same idiots that thought George Bush was actually going to try to pass the marriage protection amendment.

If you want to review bills currently before congress (because as well all know Obama has fuck all to do with passage of bills) or at ANY point during passage - hey look kids theres ALREADY a website for that:

Congress.org - Current Legislation

MrSpitz · 06-18-2009, 12:07 PM

Obama created a problem for himself, not by campaign rhetoric but by the financial bailout.

We had the same thing Bush fed us, pass this or it will be catastrophe, and in lightning speed a giant bill got pushed through and passed with the rationale being 'do this now or we will lose millions of jobs tomorrow'.

Well, few months down the line and we lost more jobs then we were supposed to, by about a million. Does that mean it is a failure? No, you need to give it more time, but the fact is they were already wrong about what its effects would be. And when you use urgency as a rationale to rush something through, well I'm certainly going to expect some quick results. That's not an unfair position.

So then we are holding the bag on 800 billion more of unfunded obligations. Which is why when he talks about health care reform funding, it is scary. If you tax health benefits, or cut spending to pay for a trillion dollar program, well then how many avenues left do you have to pay down the initial TARP AND his 800 billion bailout?

It's like, what do people expect? You can slam fiscal conservatism as a facet of the republican party, which most of you hate and that's fine. But he's moving too fast with too little thought about the budget. You know all those independents who abandoned Bush because his spending was outrageous?

And then Energy reform? He's sticking to everyone of his campaign stops without any regard to the fact that we have no money to fund them. It's like he just wants a bunch of partial legislative victories. Look at the financial bill, the Fed fucked up so we give it more power in the future? These weird version of derivatives (which I don't understand) caused a ton of the problem, but we are only going to regulate the vanilla derivatives? A lot of agencies were asleep at the wheel, but rather than forcing mandatory action of review panels we create new agencies and just increase the tangle?

Really, its like he doesn't care about taking a bold stand. Do you notice the lack of banks, who took billions of our dollars, complaining about the new regs? It's because they are essentially window dressing to what should have passed after one of the most major financial collapses in our history.

What makes you think 6 months down the line, when his popularity is less and elections are upcoming, he's going to somehow get more bold? What is the point of action if it is half assed / or half as tough as he initially said it would be?

Heavens_Myst · 06-18-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoille

If you want to review bills currently before congress (because as well all know Obama has fuck all to do with passage of bills) or at ANY point during passage - hey look kids theres ALREADY a website for that:

Congress.org - Current Legislation

Except when a nearly 1,000 page bill gets drafted, passed, and signed into law within a weekend that doesn't really apply thanks.

Mario Speedwagon · 06-18-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoille

if you seriously thought he was going to post his laws on a message board for commentary then I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

So what you're saying is that wasn't just a promise that he couldn't or has to fulfill, it was a straight lie that he never had any intention of even considering.

Thanks, that makes me feel MUCH better.

Mario Speedwagon · 06-18-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSpitz

It's like, what do people expect? You can slam fiscal conservatism as a facet of the republican party, which most of you hate and that's fine.

Since when has fiscal conservatism been a facet of the republican party?

chaos · 06-18-2009, 12:42 PM

I find that funny too, these political parties get to just claim that they represent ideals that they never have to actually represent. Like "fiscal conservatism", when did the Republican party EVER stand for fiscal conservatism? Or social welfare, when did the Democratic party EVER really care about the little guy over the corporate interests? It's all bullshit.

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06-18-2009, 09:45 AM	#5161 (permalink)
Heylel Teomim The Educated Fool Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,987 +19 Internets	And he may yet, he's not even at the 6 month mark of his presidency. It could become an issue they bring up for the midterms, you never know. Point is, it costs him too much to come out of the gate swinging. He's taken some time to get a few ducks in a row and to let the economy level out. After a year, if "nothing" has been done then I'll fuss. At the two year mark, I'll really be pissed. However, I don't expect we'll get that far without seeing movement on this and other issues.

06-18-2009, 10:02 AM	#5163 (permalink)
Heylel Teomim The Educated Fool Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,987 +19 Internets	I actually agree. I think he's been very productive, even though many of his goals have not reached their end game yet. There's only so much one can accomplish in the small amount of time he's been in office, and several interest groups are starting to get upset that they haven't been acknowledged yet.

06-18-2009, 11:39 AM	#5164 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	Yeah i don't understand that level of criticism from supporters 6 months into his Presidency. I think he's been doing pretty good so far, and I think Bill Maher is pretty much not going to be satisfied no matter what, because he has unrealistic goals. Did anyone seriously think that Obama was going to be elected, and then 6 months later the entire way that the government works would be changed, gay marriage legalized, wars ended and troops at home, drugs decriminalized and policy shifted to treatment, etc etc. A year from now, if he just gives up and stops working, yeah there is an argument. But right now it just sounds like whiny bullshit. He's definitely shifted government about as much as I expected in this kind of timeframe. I think you definitely have to adjust your expectations to meet reality if you were expecting a liberal utopia in 6 months, especially when he is fighting against public opinion on some of these issues and against the entire Republican party and a portion of his own party.

06-18-2009, 11:44 AM	#5165 (permalink)
Heylel Teomim The Educated Fool Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 2,987 +19 Internets	People still give the President too much credit (and blame) for everything that happens. I swear, sometimes I really do think humans are biologically wired to seek out the rulership of kings. We certainly seem to treat our elected leaders like them. All of those things you mentioned could have been accomplished under a monarchy or imperial rule, albeit after a bunch of revolts and civil war. Autocratic government has the benefit of cutting through the red tape. It still makes it a fucking terrible idea.

06-18-2009, 11:59 AM	#5168 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	I can totally understand being disappointed in some of his broken promises, for instance the "state secrets" bit or the warrantless wiretapping or the level of transparency. I am, too. What I don't understand is the unrealistic expectations. Like, look at Maher's rant. It's like I was in a time warp and we're in 2010 and nothing has been done on any issue. What did he expect? It's kind of childish.

06-18-2009, 12:07 PM	#5171 (permalink)
MrSpitz look at me! i'm so cool! i'm impervious to the internet! nothing bothers me! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 848 -39 Internets	Obama created a problem for himself, not by campaign rhetoric but by the financial bailout. We had the same thing Bush fed us, pass this or it will be catastrophe, and in lightning speed a giant bill got pushed through and passed with the rationale being 'do this now or we will lose millions of jobs tomorrow'. Well, few months down the line and we lost more jobs then we were supposed to, by about a million. Does that mean it is a failure? No, you need to give it more time, but the fact is they were already wrong about what its effects would be. And when you use urgency as a rationale to rush something through, well I'm certainly going to expect some quick results. That's not an unfair position. So then we are holding the bag on 800 billion more of unfunded obligations. Which is why when he talks about health care reform funding, it is scary. If you tax health benefits, or cut spending to pay for a trillion dollar program, well then how many avenues left do you have to pay down the initial TARP AND his 800 billion bailout? It's like, what do people expect? You can slam fiscal conservatism as a facet of the republican party, which most of you hate and that's fine. But he's moving too fast with too little thought about the budget. You know all those independents who abandoned Bush because his spending was outrageous? And then Energy reform? He's sticking to everyone of his campaign stops without any regard to the fact that we have no money to fund them. It's like he just wants a bunch of partial legislative victories. Look at the financial bill, the Fed fucked up so we give it more power in the future? These weird version of derivatives (which I don't understand) caused a ton of the problem, but we are only going to regulate the vanilla derivatives? A lot of agencies were asleep at the wheel, but rather than forcing mandatory action of review panels we create new agencies and just increase the tangle? Really, its like he doesn't care about taking a bold stand. Do you notice the lack of banks, who took billions of our dollars, complaining about the new regs? It's because they are essentially window dressing to what should have passed after one of the most major financial collapses in our history. What makes you think 6 months down the line, when his popularity is less and elections are upcoming, he's going to somehow get more bold? What is the point of action if it is half assed / or half as tough as he initially said it would be?

06-18-2009, 12:42 PM	#5175 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	I find that funny too, these political parties get to just claim that they represent ideals that they never have to actually represent. Like "fiscal conservatism", when did the Republican party EVER stand for fiscal conservatism? Or social welfare, when did the Democratic party EVER really care about the little guy over the corporate interests? It's all bullshit.