Are Republicans still a National Party?

[Lleauaric~EW]

I guess the bottom line argument is if you feel health care is a basic need, like security and safety, or not.

If not.. can you explain that please.. because I really do not understand your line of thought.

If so, then why would we not have health care provided as a need. Would we make police protection unaffordable for some people? Or have the FDA work as a private agency on the food of people who can afford their service?

[Torvon]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

I guess the bottom line argument is if you feel health care is a basic need, like security and safety, or not.

If not.. can you explain that please.. because I really do not understand your line of thought.

If so, then why would we not have health care provided as a need. Would we make police protection unaffordable for some people? Or have the FDA work as a private agency on the food of people who can afford their service?

A need for what? To survive? Of course it is. The government however does not provide services such as the ones you've mentioned because they are needed on an individual bases, they provide such services as an overall benefit to society. Police protection for my neighbor down the street who "couldn't afford it" is almost as beneficial to me and all his other neighbors as it is to him. It promotes the general welfare of society. Health care on the other hand, does not function in the same way. Of course it's a necessity if you want to live a long healthy life, but government provided health care is not a necessity for society as a whole to continue functioning.

The argument isn't whether or not health care is needed; it's whether or not the government should be providing it.

[Heylel Teomim]

Healthcare doesn't promote the general welfare of society?

What the fuck? What in the fucking fuck? I need a goddamn advil.

[Draegan]

Healthcare does promote a better society. I don't know how you think it doesn't.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

It promotes the general welfare of society. Health care on the other hand, does not function in the same way.

My mind. It asplode. The healthiness of others impacts you just as much as the safety of your streets. If people could afford healthcare, maybe they wouldn't rob stores to pay medical bills. Maybe they wouldn't prostitute themselves for their children's booster shots. Maybe they wouldn't rob banks. Maybe they wouldn't run to the ER for every tiny thing, raising your premiums and the cost of services. Maybe they'd be more productive, and contribute more in taxes, thus lowering your overall tax burden. Maybe they'd spend the money they otherwise spend trying to stay healthy on things like houses, education, or other economically stimulating activity. Maybe that fat chick down the street with the cute face can get some help with her waistline, and you'll end up marrying her.

All of these things are not currently possible for 50 million Americans under the current system. 1/6th of our population. How many more are insured, but hideously in debt due to rationed healthcare, denied treatments, and all of the other profit-driven practices that "Private Business" has enacted upon them? Have insurance through an employer but aren't happy with it? Too bad. You can't drop your current insurance to look for another without having to wait months or years for the new coverage to kick in; in the meantime, you may get seriously injured or ill, and you're fucked. Thanks for playing, God Bless America!

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Torvon

Of course it's a necessity if you want to live a long healthy life, but government provided health care is not a necessity for society as a whole to continue functioning.

This is what it boils down to. This insane point of view right here. This is why we have retards shouting at meetings. This is why we have idiotic shit for brains dickweeds on the radio screaming socialism and why the goddamn morons who listen to them buy into it.

You are either incapable or unwilling to understand how your country works.

You say that your neighbor getting police protection helps you as well as him? I agree. What about getting your neighbor glasses? I need glasses to drive and thankfully I can afford to go to an optometrist, get a checkup and get a new prescription every other year or so. What about your neighbor that can't? Him driving by your house everyday is now a liability. Hell, just him walking around blind as a bat could be one as well. That is just one simple example off the top of my head. Sit there and actually think about it for a while and if you still come to your same conclusion you are just not too bright and there is no changing stupid.

You say government provided health care is not needed for us to continue as a functioning society and I agree. Neither is government run police, fire, postal or military services.

We can do away with all of those evil socialized programs and still function as a society.

[Heavens_Myst]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

Neither is government run police, fire, postal or military services.

I would suggest Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Societies based on the past are incapable of looking forward.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

I would suggest Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government.

Got it right here. Which part would you suggest for outlining the reasons and examples of the necessity of government run police, fire and military services? I can only assume you must be intimately familiar with it since you suggested it for my specific example.

[Torvon]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

Healthcare doesn't promote the general welfare of society?

What the fuck? What in the fucking fuck? I need a goddamn advil.

I never said health care doesn't promote the general welfare. I said it doesn't promote the general way fair in the same way that police protection does. The police provide (at least in theory) a general atmosphere of safety for those living under their protection. As I already noted, the police protecting my neighbors is as beneficial to me as it is to them. They are used to keep a lawful society. The government providing health care to my neighbor down the street does not benefit his neighbors even close to as much as it benefits him. Health care is targeted at the benefit of individuals rather than the society as a whole.

Healthcare does promote a better society. I don't know how you think it doesn't.

I do think that health care promotes a better society, obviously it promotes a healthier society. Again, however, health care is focused at the individuals that make up a group; not the group as a whole. I believe that is why so many people take issue with government offering health care.

If people could afford healthcare, maybe they wouldn't rob stores to pay medical bills. Maybe they wouldn't prostitute themselves for their children's booster shots. Maybe they wouldn't rob banks. Maybe they wouldn't run to the ER for every tiny thing, raising your premiums and the cost of services. Maybe they'd be more productive, and contribute more in taxes, thus lowering your overall tax burden. Maybe they'd spend the money they otherwise spend trying to stay healthy on things like houses, education, or other economically stimulating activity. Maybe that fat chick down the street with the cute face can get some help with her waistline, and you'll end up marrying her.

I totally agree that something in the system needs to change. I'm not saying everything is perfect right now and we should continue in this path indefinitely. I was pointing out that comparing health care to police protection is rather naive. Trying to argue that the problem of health care leads to significant increases in crime and prostitution is an argument I would have to see some evidence for before I even take it seriously.

This is what it boils down to. This insane point of view right here. This is why we have retards shouting at meetings. This is why we have idiotic shit for brains dickweeds on the radio screaming socialism and why the goddamn morons who listen to them buy into it.

No, not even close. The reason we have people shouting at meetings is because some people seem to be of the opinion that the more you degrade anyone that has a different opinion than you the more right you are.

Getting my neighbor glasses is going to promote my welfare as much as his? Certainly you can't be serious. Of course there are going to be minor benefits here and there if other people have health care, but is it worth the cost to us as a country?

You say government provided health care is not needed for us to continue as a functioning society and I agree. Neither is government run police, fire, postal or military services.

Are you saying private corporations could run these organizations as well or better than the government? Or are you saying we just don't need them? If those are the programs you are referring to as being "evil" than I would assume you are saying we could function without them. I won't even bother trying to explain why that just simply wouldn't work because I know you already understand why.

[Knucklehead]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

Got it right here. Which part would you suggest for outlining the reasons and examples of the necessity of government run police, fire and military services? I can only assume you must be intimately familiar with it since you suggested it for my specific example.

Some folks just have dreams of living in a state of nature. What's so wrong with that? I think we should let them -- on some island far, far away from the rest of us, with tons of firearms and strategically placed hidden cameras beaming out a live pay-per-view signal, whose profits are used to pay for universal health care.

Don't laugh. It's as sane an idea as modern man living in a state of nature.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Torvon

Again, however, health care is focused at the individuals that make up a group; not the group as a whole.

Epidemiologists would disagree quite strongly with you.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Torvon

No, not even close. The reason we have people shouting at meetings is because some people seem to be of the opinion that the more you degrade anyone that has a different opinion than you the more right you are.

They are showing up thinking they understand the way things work. They don't. Opinions or not, most of them are 100% wrong about what they are shouting about. It has nothing to do with what your opinions are, it has to do with what the facts are. Just because you feel something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong.

Originally Posted by Torvon

Getting my neighbor glasses is going to promote my welfare as much as his? Certainly you can't be serious

Well, considering that's not what I said, I guess not. I was providing an example to your example. I'll go ahead and repeat the entire conversation for you.

You said - "Police protection for my neighbor down the street who "couldn't afford it" is almost as beneficial to me and all his other neighbors as it is to him"

I said - "You say that your neighbor getting police protection helps you as well as him? I agree. What about getting your neighbor glasses? I need glasses to drive and thankfully I can afford to go to an optometrist, get a checkup and get a new prescription every other year or so. What about your neighbor that can't? Him driving by your house everyday is now a liability."

I never said it benefits you the exact 100% same as it does him, you just felt like reading it that way. What it breaks down to is your neighbor being able to see while he drives ups the odds that he is not going to drive through your front door. It was a small, single and simple example of how everyone having health care benefits everyone, just like universal fire protection and police protection. As I said, sit and think about it and I'm sure you can come up with quite a few more(like a sick co-worker getting medicine so you don't have to cover his hours...).

Originally Posted by Torvon

Are you saying private corporations could run these organizations as well or better than the government? Or are you saying we just don't need them?

It was pretty clear what I said. I said Government Run police/fire/military. I do not think they could be better run by private organizations which is obvious. My point is that if the government runs those, and runs them pretty well, what makes you think they can't have a form of health care?

[Sunder]

Funny, I thought I clicked on the wrong thread for a second. Could have sworn this wasn't the Health Care thread.

[Neferata]

I do think that health care promotes a better society, obviously it promotes a healthier society. Again, however, health care is focused at the individuals that make up a group; not the group as a whole. I believe that is why so many people take issue with government offering health care.

It's focused on the individuals who have health problems during their lifetime. For example, everyone.