Has Evolution Been Proven to be True ?

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by psu199

I always took issue to this concept. Isn't god supposed to be omniscient? Does this power not extend to future happenings? If it doesn't, kick omniscience out the window, if it does, then this whole free will is bullshit because he must have known what was going to happen when he set things in motion. He must have known that our free will would lead to horrible choices and death and war and all that shit. Right?

So, given that...he's either: not omniscient, not all powerful, or not benevolent.

In short, regardless of the choice being known ahead of time, the person still actually makes that choice. It's Free Will because God knowing doesn't directly influence the choices that are made, or something.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by psu199

I always took issue to this concept. Isn't god supposed to be omniscient? Does this power not extend to future happenings? If it doesn't, kick omniscience out the window, if it does, then this whole free will is bullshit because he must have known what was going to happen when he set things in motion. He must have known that our free will would lead to horrible choices and death and war and all that shit. Right?

So, given that...he's either: not omniscient, not all powerful, or not benevolent.

This begs the question "Does no life and no pain outweigh the good of life with pain?"

I that after weighing conclusions, life with suffering holds more good than a universe absent of both life and suffering. Basically God is just maximizing the amount of good in the universe.

[Cad]

I like how none of the evolution threads really address evolution for long, they inevitably derail into religion. Why can't we actually discuss evolution as a theory and it's relative merits rather than saying "I don't believe in that because I believe in X for these vague unverifiable and intensely personal reasons".. ? Boggling..

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

In short, regardless of the choice being known ahead of time, the person still actually makes that choice. It's Free Will because God knowing doesn't directly influence the choices that are made, or something.

Yeah but if he knows what you're going to do before you do it, then the choice is already made and free will doesn't actually exist. It's just man's limited, non-omnicient view of the universe that provides the appearance of free will.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

Yeah but if he knows what you're going to do before you do it, then the choice is already made and free will doesn't actually exist. It's just man's limited, non-omnicient view of the universe that provides the appearance of free will.

Hmmm...

I know for a fact you are going to keep repeating this argument. Am I denying your free will? I doubt it and you won't care anyway, so regardless, you use your free will any damn way you please.

If you want to prove you have free will, just do something you don't want to do with no other reason but to do it.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by Cad

I like how none of the evolution threads really address evolution for long, they inevitably derail into religion. Why can't we actually discuss evolution as a theory and it's relative merits rather than saying "I don't believe in that because I believe in X for these vague unverifiable and intensely personal reasons".. ? Boggling..

I think its because there's not really much to discuss. It usually meanders into what actually caused the first organism that set evolution in motion.

Evolution, I think, isn't revolting to the idea of God if I understand evolution correctly. I, myself, believe evolution is very much real in the sense of mutations through imperfect cellular replication and straight into survival of the fittest.

P.S. sorry for multiple posts, but I'm using my phone to reply!

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Cad

I like how none of the evolution threads really address evolution for long, they inevitably derail into religion. Why can't we actually discuss evolution as a theory and it's relative merits rather than saying "I don't believe in that because I believe in X for these vague unverifiable and intensely personal reasons".. ? Boggling..

Probably because the debate has been over for a long time and every argument against evolution is either easily refuted or unscientific. Some people just don't want to accept that they're the product of random mutations, they'd rather think of themselves as a tool of god's will.

Not really surprising, though. Think how many people have nothing in life but the hope to be rewarded in heaven. It's pretty sad, really...

[psu199]

I know for a fact you are going to keep repeating this argument. Am I denying your free will? I doubt it and you won't care anyway, so regardless, you use your free will any damn way you please.

If you want to prove you have free will, just do something you don't want to do with no other reason but to do it.

Bender: Do you know what I'm going to do before I do it?

God: Yes

Bender: But what if I do something different?

God: Well then I don't know that.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by nu_11

Hmmm...

I know for a fact you are going to keep repeating this argument. Am I denying your free will? I doubt it and you won't care anyway, so regardless, you use your free will any damn way you please.

If you want to prove you have free will, just do something you don't want to do with no other reason but to do it.

Again, it's the appearance of free will over its actual existence. If you know, absolutely and with 100% certainty, what the outcome of my actions is going to be then those actions are necessarily set in advance. If they're set in advance, I don't really have a choice even if my limited information would lead me to believe otherwise.

[Xantium]

At one point all physical matter had to have come from somewhere and it's impossible for it to have come from nothing since nothing can't ever be anything other than nothing.

The problem with this argument is we don't know if before the big bang the law of conservation of energy held true. Physics doesn't even try to explain what it was like because we can't know if any of the rules of this universe even apply.

[Lumie]

There's nothing logically impossible about an infinite regress. Lay down a semi formal proof and I'll shoot it down. You don't like the idea for the same reason no one likes the idea: because it's uncomfortable.

So you're basically saying that something can come from nothing....and you consider yourself intelligent? I don't like the idea because IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. How can you as a finite being, possibly comprehend infinity? Try counting to infinity and let me know if/when you've reached it. Oh wait, you can't because in the same way, it's logically impossible.

I think it's exactly the opposite.....you're the one that doesn't like the idea for the reason that it's uncomfortable that you can't truly comprehend your own universe or existence and thus evoke ridiculous and impossible conclusions such as everything being a random accident.

You are thinking 3 dimensionally. The universe exists on more planes then x,y,and z.
To ask, what existed before the big bang, ignores that time is a quotent of 4 dimensional space, and assumes time is linear, and even existed prior to the big bang. Just because we operate across time linearly, doesn't mean time does.

You realize that "time" doesn't even exist right? There is no past and future and the only moment that ever exists is NOW. Time can only possibly be linear and is merely a unit of measurement. You can't ever go backward in time nor can you ever go forward in time because time is an illusion and is not a physical entity that can be traveled through like say, water or air.

This can be proven by the fact that a second can never actually occur, proving time doesn't even exist the way you see it. Take a second for example. A second is 1/60th of a minute. A milisecond is .1 of a second. a nanosecond is a unit of time representing .000000001 (10-9) or 1 billionth of a second. Essentially, a second can be broken down infinitely to the point where it can never even start. This means that "time" is infinite and thus has always existed and always will exist but can never possibly be pin pointed.

Why can't we actually discuss evolution as a theory and it's relative merits rather than saying "I don't believe in that because I believe in X for these vague unverifiable and intensely personal reasons".. ?

Well if common sense is a vague unverifiable and intensely personal reason then whats the point of discussing anything? I am trying to discuss evolution and it's relative merits by telling you that it is meaningless and pointless to discuss since it does not mean anything. Talking about how life intelligently improves itself subconsciously through natural selection means what exactly? Did evolution create itself? What created the possibility for evolutions existence to begin with?

I always took issue to this concept. Isn't god supposed to be omniscient? Does this power not extend to future happenings? If it doesn't, kick omniscience out the window, if it does, then this whole free will is bullshit because he must have known what was going to happen when he set things in motion. He must have known that our free will would lead to horrible choices and death and war and all that shit. Right?

So, given that...he's either: not omniscient, not all powerful, or not benevolent.

Thats the most ridiculous thing imaginable. God is both omniscient and benevolent. The only way free will would not exist is if God did not allow those "horrible choices" to occur to begin with. No one told anyone what to do or how to do it so just because someone knows your every move doesn't mean you don't still have free choice. You're just making a ridiculously untrue assumption.

Probably because the debate has been over for a long time and every argument against evolution is either easily refuted or unscientific. Some people just don't want to accept that they're the product of random mutations, they'd rather think of themselves as a tool of god's will.

Not really surprising, though. Think how many people have nothing in life but the hope to be rewarded in heaven. It's pretty sad, really...

Well then I suppose logic and common sense are unscientific and that it's totally obvious and reasonable to think that random mutations happen by a total freak chance and not intelligent guidance, despite ALL evidence suggesting the latter. I guess Windows created itself via random mutations as well, since that's obviously possible according to your logic(or lack thereof). Oh and World of Warcraft created itself too...random occurrence of freak random mutations which eventually became what we know as WoW. Totally not the work of intelligent influence and countless hours of programming and designing and drawing.

I seriously don't get it. How can you possibly believe that this world and DNA(which are far far far more advanced then say Windows or WoW) randomly and spontaneously created itself through random proccessess/chance? Real life is God's MMORPG complete with different races, trade skills and PvP and the largest and most complex game world ever created!

[Araxen]

Lumie trolls without one single curse word to reel people in. Sign of a good troll right there.

[psu199]

Thats the most ridiculous thing imaginable. God is both omniscient and benevolent. The only way free will would not exist is if God did not allow those "horrible choices" to occur to begin with. No one told anyone what to do or how to do it so just because someone knows your every move doesn't mean you don't still have free choice. You're just making a ridiculously untrue assumption.

I know I won't change your mind, but look at it objectively. Way back in the dawn of creation (6000 years ago?) God created existence. In so doing, he had infinite foreknowledge of all things that had happened previously, and ever would happen in the future. Could he not, given that foreknowledge, have tweaked creation in such a way to alter events? Couldn't he have set something in motion slightly differently, not to result in the death of 6,000,000 of his chosen people?

You've got to agree that in that moment, the dawn of creation, he KNEW that people would make choices that would lead to horrible events taking place. Which means, ultimately, he designed the world with those horrible events / things planned out.

God is a dick.

[Regime]

Originally Posted by Erronius

LOL

ROFL

[Banal]

Originally Posted by psu199

God is a dick.

God is Santa Claus for adults. But it's like Nietzsche said, some lies are necessary for survival. After believing your life is a battleground for supernatural beings, it would be quite dull to face the fact that the entire scope of your existence is irrelevant.

On the other hand, I think it's a mistake to be so eager to take a sledgehammer to religion in the mainstream. Can you imagine how much more chaotic society would be if everyone actually behaved consistently with a secular, empirical paradigm. Religion, and the morality which outlives it, is a powerful stabilizing force in society.