Has Evolution Been Proven to be True ?

[Locithon]

Originally Posted by Dumar

.it doesn't matter if you say "nature selects random mutations for life based on their traits". life is STILL changing in response, whether it's a right or wrong response to change. whether the change is because of a random combination to express a certain trait. that's still not answering what i'm asking you here today. i'm asking WHY does this occur? there is no answer to this question. there is no reason for it or cause of it.

For an engineer it's surprising you can't grasp some of the basic concepts of evolution. There is no 'WHY' to the mutations, when you have a population you will have a slight variation in DNA with each generation. Most of the mutations are not beneficial, they can be benign and some can even be harmful. But there is an extremely small percentage where a mutation is beneficial to the survival of the organism. So it's not surprising that the organism will have a tendency to survive longer and have more offspring, thus passing the beneficial mutation on to the next generation. But you do have to remember this happens over a long period of time, when you have thousands of generations you will slowly see these traits become more apparent. So when someone says nature selects these traits it's not that it's a conscious decision being made, it's just a consequence of whatever the current environment is.

[aychamo_aycono]

^^^ Is he asking "Why do mutations occur?" Because our cellular machinery for DNA replication is not perfect. Meiosis and mitosis are not without flaws! This is why we cancers, trisomies, etc.

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by aychamo_aycono

This is the one point in a discussion that always comes up that always blows my mind. I will *never* understand how the "theist" (for lack of a better word) is able to just say "Oh, god just always existed" and accept that as a good explanation!

It's done the same way scientists are now using M-Theory to describe the origins our universe. They are now saying we can trace our creation back to before the Big Bang. They state there are these membranes that exist outside our universe, that move with rippling motions, and sometimes they collide, and the contact creates a new universe. You ask them, "well what created these membranes?" The answer? "Oh, they always existed."

[Tuco]

To be fair to the theists, every theory of where we came from has this block.

The difference between science and religion is that science says, "Maybe we'll know when our tech gets better" and religion says, "Maybe we'll know when our God reveals it to us"

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by The Edge

It's done the same way scientists are now using M-Theory to describe the origins our universe. They are now saying we can trace our creation back to before the Big Bang. They state there are these membranes that exist outside our universe, that move with rippling motions, and sometimes they collide, and the contact creates a new universe. You ask them, "well what created these membranes?" The answer? "Oh, they always existed."

Quote/source please.

And a good scientist (not the Discovery Channel, History Channel, or National Geographic Channel which provide summaries of certain discussions as "generally accepted" or "likely" fact) will emphasize that these are theories that have the greatest likelihood of being true due to the evidence we have on hand. Does that always have to be fucking spelled out to people?

Apparently so.

[deab]

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | New spark in classic experiments

Originally Posted by BBC News

There's a new spark of life in iconic experiments first done in the 1950s, on the kind of primordial "soup" that may have predated life itself on Earth.

Ageing vials of chemicals have been discovered in a Californian lab, surviving samples from the legendary experiments performed by chemist Stanley Miller.

Just something interesting. If it's linked it the first few pages, sorry to repost.

[Sylverlokk]

Originally Posted by Dumar

you're still misunderstanding.

it's a subtle difference in what i'm asking here. the answer to my question is not outside stimuli.

organisms respond to those outside stimuli by changing themselves to better adapt, yes okay. so what about the organism causes it to know about this change and how does the organism know to respond? to put another way, where, how, or by what or whom does the information exchange from the environment to the organism occur for the organism to 'know' to change? yes, variations in genetic code exist, but that still begs the same question: namely, WHY does variation exist?

ps, hopefully with that you can understand better.

No organisms do not respond to outside change to change. Organisms (by which I assume you mean species and not individuals) change all the time regardless of any change outside or not. The only factor is whether that change actually helps them survive longer or mate more or not. If not then the change for changes sake dies out and the species remains in its "base" format. If the change does increase the individuals chance at survival or reproduction then that change will tend to increase in the species OVER MANY GENERATIONS as the new genes breed marginally more then the old.

The question "why does variation exist" has the answer that variation allows life to evolve to fill all the available ecological niches around it. More importantly though is the understanding that variation is an intrinsic part of life. No two humans are 100% alike, even twins. Even cloned beings will have micro biological differences based on events as they develop in the womb, maybe the blood supply to one womb was slightly warmer or more oxygenated for example.

[nu_11]

Originally Posted by aychamo_aycono

^^^ Is he asking "Why do mutations occur?" Because our cellular machinery for DNA replication is not perfect. Meiosis and mitosis are not without flaws! This is why we cancers, trisomies, etc.

and why we get old...

I think!

Originally Posted by Sylverlokk

I said were pretty close just like were pretty close to AI. In the next 10-20 years it will happen.

I'm still in college and have taken only 1 biology class (Math major), but I'm guessing there's a shitload of difference between abiogenesis and using already existing organisms as a base.

[Erronius]

Originally Posted by aychamo_aycono

This is why we have cancers, trisomies, etc.

Must...not...quote...Lumie...

[Celebrindal]

If anyone is interested, there is a great series of lectures on itunes for free. It's an 8 part video series called Darwin's Legacy and it's from Stanford University.

Just search iTunes for Darwin's Legacy.

[Lonin]

Originally Posted by The Edge

It's done the same way scientists are now using M-Theory to describe the origins our universe. They are now saying we can trace our creation back to before the Big Bang. They state there are these membranes that exist outside our universe, that move with rippling motions, and sometimes they collide, and the contact creates a new universe. You ask them, "well what created these membranes?" The answer? "Oh, they always existed."

I was actually going to expand on my original post and include the point that science can do the same thing as religion in terms of the pre-universe, but I didn't feel that I had worded it properly. You are definitely mischaracterizing String and M Theory though. The belief that God created the universe is an almost universally held belief among theists, whereas theories describing the "times" before our universe are anything but universally accepted, just the opposite in fact. Many physicists disapprove of the grant money given to research String and M Theories because they believe it is too faith-based. Even the scientists who strongly support and do the actual research on these theories will tell you right off the bat that they have no physical evidence to support their claims, it's extremely theoretical. Trying to equate the "God exists beyond logic" copout with very tentative scientific theories is just simply wrong.

[Lumie]

So where are you going with this exactly? What is your opinion of how the universe was created and what was before the big bang? It makes a great deal of sense that a being such as God has ALWAYS existed and as such, is infinite. Everything in the material universe is finite because it had to have had a beginning(birth) and has to have an end(death). The only logical explanation is that some intelligent force has ALWAYS existed and as such is infinite, which explains why infinite numbers such as pi exist which defy logic and have no beginning nor ending. Can anyone of us ever count to infinity? Is it even possible for a finite being to truly comprehend infinity since it could never be reached in anyones life time?

Is it not true that our world is rather intelligently devised and that it requires intelligence to understand the way it was devised? Science is merely an attempt at trying to understand our universe through the reverse engineering of universal constants by theorem and experimentation. What pray tell do you suppose put that law in place to begin with? Why is it so hard to comprehend that if it takes intelligence to comprehend our universe then it took intelligence to create it.

Theres only two ways to go about this. Either everything came from nothing(which is impossible) or everything came from an infinitely intelligent life force(God) and created everything that exists(which is possible). The only thing that is impossible is for us to understand how God is possible since we, as finite beings, cannot possibly comprehend infinity. However, just because we cannot comprehend this does not make it any the less true and the only alternative is to say everything came from nothing, which is obviously impossible, thus leaving only one logical explanation...God.

[Dirus]

Originally Posted by Lumie

So where are you going with this exactly? What is your opinion of how the universe was created and what was before the big bang? It makes a great deal of sense that a being such as God has ALWAYS existed and as such, is infinite. Everything in the material universe is finite because it had to have had a beginning(birth) and has to have an end(death). The only logical explanation is that some intelligent force has ALWAYS existed and as such is infinite, which explains why infinite numbers such as pi exist which defy logic and have no beginning nor ending. Can anyone of us ever count to infinity? Is it even possible for a finite being to truly comprehend infinity since it could never be reached in anyones life time?

Is it not true that our world is rather intelligently devised and that it requires intelligence to understand the way it was devised? Science is merely an attempt at trying to understand our universe through the reverse engineering of universal constants by theorem and experimentation. What pray tell do you suppose put that law in place to begin with? Why is it so hard to comprehend that if it takes intelligence to comprehend our universe then it took intelligence to create it.

Theres only two ways to go about this. Either everything came from nothing(which is impossible) or everything came from an infinitely intelligent life force(God) and created everything that exists(which is possible). The only thing that is impossible is for us to understand how God is possible since we, as finite beings, cannot possibly comprehend infinity. However, just because we cannot comprehend this does not make it any the less true and the only alternative is to say everything came from nothing, which is obviously impossible, thus leaving only one logical explanation...God.

Normally I just ignore posts like this but I am curious as to how you would answer the following: Why do you choose to worship a God that allows so much pain and suffering in the world when he/she/it could stop it at any time? I dont believe in God myself. I have never been presented a good reason for doing so. But even if God appeared to me in my living room, I wouldnt worship someone that choose to rule the way he does.

I am not interested in an argument about if God exists or is evolution a viable theory. There is nothing new here I havent heard before. I want to know why you would choose to worship this dude to begin with.

[Strifen]

Originally Posted by Dirus

Why do you choose to worship a God that allows so much pain and suffering in the world when he/she/it could stop it at any time? I dont believe in God myself. I have never been presented a good reason for doing so. But even if God appeared to me in my living room, I wouldnt worship someone that choose to rule the way he does.

I am not interested in an argument about if God exists or is evolution a viable theory. There is nothing new here I havent heard before. I want to know why you would choose to worship this dude to begin with.

The most important gift that God gave human beings is the gift of Free Will. Free will to choose how to live your life how you want, to make the decisions that you want, to screw up however you want. If god were to do anything, it would directly infringe on our free will. Along with this, there is good and evil told of in the bible. Along with the good there is evil on the world as well which is influenced by Satan, hence all the evil you see. There is a constant struggle of good vs evil on not only the physical plane but the spiritual.

Why do I choose to be religious? Well, I hate what the term religious has become. No I don't attend church, most of the churches out there are just trying to make money off of you, no I don't worship god in literal church sense. Do I sincerely thank him everyday for granting me life? Yes. The typical church rhetoric is that god is out there, apart from us, and he wants to be worshiped, that doesn't resonate with me well.

Incoming flames from the Atheist majority on these boards. It is what it is, sorry to derail but the question was asked.

[nu_11]

Yeah. I adopt the idea of God as well Strifen. My idea of God doesn't exactly coincide with the church's and christian's idea of God. In truth, I believe every person has their own idea of what God actually is. To most of you guys... I guess your God would be the vag. =P

I don't think of God in terms of human beings. There's a whole chunk of the electromagnetic spectrum that appears invisible to us. We cannot sense or feel more than what we are limited to (through evolution?). "What senses do we lack that we cannot see another world around us," or some shit like that. I am thankful for my life and I do thank God or whatever you want to call it (luck?) for my life. I'm not the most fortunate, but my niece makes life worth living for me. It's a damn shame most of you will deny what you cannot see or touch, but then again it's a more simple life.

Some people choose to see or not see God in things. I'm in the former.

Edit: In an attempt to avoid some hate, I have to mention that I don't believe in hell. So... sin away!