Help with Business School, Careers in Finance, etc.

[Millie]

I'm creating a thread for people to help each other with questions, answers, general and specific advice, etc., about careers in finance, b-school, and other related topics. I know we have a lot of people potentially interested in this stuff, and a good handful of people who've either gone through it or are in the process of going through it (myself included).

[Desx]

I'll be the first to reply...

I'm currently at the McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin.. working towards my BBA in Accounting, or more specifically auditing.

My interests lie primarily in Finance, but I believe a strong background in Accounting is more powerful at this point in time. The competition for employment with Finance majors is also disheartening. My goal is to establish an investment firm that doesn't limit its self to specific practices ie. ETFs, sector rotation, retirement management, real estate, etc.

I plan on applying to the MPA program next spring providing everything works out correctly. Hopefully from there ill go for a MBA in Finance / PHD in Economics - depending on what opportunities present themselves.

One of my biggest issues is that I transferred here last year from a community college, that had given me horrible advising. During my time there I worked at Best Buy roughly 25 to 30 hours a week and ended up with a 3.79 GPA.

After moving to Austin, finding an apartment, and still working with Best Buy, I found that McCombs was overwhelming compared to CC (some of my credits didn't transfer)

After my first year here at McCombs my GPA is a 2.2. The transition [from CC + living with my parents + working] to [living on my own + working + being in one of the top business schools] has been a huge adjustment.

Right now I'm at the point where I'm scared that I've lost many great opportunities due purely to my GPA.

Being almost 23 and having a late start on college, I feel pressure to continue developing myself outside of college - which is why I'm working on two startup companies and trading stocks online. This semester I've started an organization focusing on finance, accounting, marketing, etc.

My performance in my classes has greatly improved, but I won't have enough time to really correct my GPA to the point where it needs to be. I find that I'm much more motivated than the students I'm in school with.

I'd appreciate any advice other than "raise your GPA," which is what I'm focusing 90% of my time on.

[Lyrical]

Desx, I have a little bit different experience than alot of other people on this board because I know what it is like first hand. I earned my full time MBA from McCombs in 2005. The school is brutal. In the grad program, they flunked 15% of the students in the core classes. There was a forced curve, and there is a grade compression to B's (not A's like other t1 schools).

The bottom line is that you are going to a t1 business school. Did you think it would be easy? Everyone I know that went to McCombs (whether they were engineers or scientists) all said the same thing - THIS IS HARDER THAN I THOUGHT.

I loved the discipline of the school, but no one cares if you flunk out. A good percentage of my cohort dropped because it was that much harder than they thought it would be. Its a little bit different from other t1 schools that don't like to admit they made a mistake (so you don't get low grades). At UT, they have no problems with you leaving if you can't hack the grades. At some schools, if you aren't making A's then you are flunking, but at UT, very frequently, you would hear students say, "Thank God. I worked day and night all semester and got all B's."

A few things that helped me get through UT with a 3.6 GPA:

1- Realize that you are at a t1 school. When I lived in Austin, the local newspaper did a study that showed that the school doesn't accept even the top .5% of applicants. In their surveys, BusinessWeek and US News don't get all of the appilcations. By the time they see any data, its already been culled over three times. Having personally walked through the Dean's office alot (who was a friend of mine), I'd see them throwing out applications all day (and cussing while doing it).

The school is super-selective. You've earned the honor of getting into it. Congratulations. But now, you are around some of the smartest people in the world, and you are competing against them.

Did you come this far to fail? After the pure hell it takes to get into the school, and the amount of workload, the only fight you have is worth a 2.2 GPA? The fight has just started, and you have to fight every day. Are you screwing off, or going for the gold? My first year, I took off seven minutes to screw off. The rest of the time, I was studying. I think that if you talked to the people getting A's there, they are all doing the same. I average 4.5 hours of sleep a night during the whole program. YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE!

You either have to be willing to pay the price, or switch to another school that isn't t1. You signed on for hell when you started.

2- Always aim to make A's, and that keeps you from making C's. As tough as it was there, you have to aim for excellence. I think the people that do well at UT have this attitude. The ones that aim for just making a 3.0 are the ones that are in danger of making C's. I only came close to a C once (in statistics) because I was competing with engineers and scientists in a math class LOL.

The first year was high on quant stuff, and the Dean would ask us businesspeople if we really thought we could compete with engineers and scientists in math. I guess was too naive, but I had like a 3.8 my first year. You have to believe and work for A's at UT every day.

I believe you have to shoot for perfect scores on your tests at UT to ensure you get a B or higher. It is that competitive and your classmates are that smart/devoted.

3- Make sure you spend a little time on you. I made sure to go to church on Sundays and worked out (weights and cardio) also. You need to keep your mind sharp, and you can't do that if you don't take care of your mind/body/spirit connection. There is only so many hours you can push your mind if you aren't in physical shape, and you need to have the right mind set (stay positive).

4- At this point, you really need to buckle down. Are you partying every night? If I were you, I'd stay away from partying except for Fri or Sat night.

You have a 2.2 GPA. If you don't pull your grades up, when you start interviewing, you are going to see the best companies in the world come to campus, and ignore you. They will interview your friends, but you won't even get an interview with a sub-3.0 GPA. Heck, when I was interviewing, some employers said they wouldn't even talk to anyone with a sub-3.5 GPA.

What's the highest you can get your GPA to, if you made all A's, between now and graduation? You need to start tracking it. You can avoid this problem by getting out ahead of it now.

5- How are you doing, time-management wise? This doesn't just have to do with studying all the time, but also managing your timeframe on deliverables. As a rule of thumb, I would start all my papers at least a week early, and I would start studying for exams a month out.

This was a little bit hardcore, but I was well prepared for the exams, and wasn't in any real danger of making lower than a 3.0.

Are you missing classes? When you are there, are you paying attention/taking notes? I have always believed that professors give subtle hints as to what will be on the exam during class. The more you pay attention, the more you can see this. Sometimes, it might be a change in their tone of voice or an expression of urgency/importance.

Are you keeping up with assigned readings and homework? At UT, they tend to assign waaaay more than you can handle. If you get behind, forget it, you are lucky to make a B at this point (and most likely a C). You can't get behind. There were times would get sick, and still have to study. There's nothing like putting in 18 hour days when you have the flu. Realize that for some classes, you are assigned about as much readings and cases that would one get in med school. Sometimes, power skimming is your best friend because there is no way you can read everything assigned and get cases done. I was the worst at power skimming - I insisted on reading everything.

6- Don't expect to be able to make it in to a t1 MBA program with a 2.2 GPA.

The decisions you are making now are going to have implications on you for the next ten years. It is pretty hard to spin that you went to a t1 school and barely graduated.

7- Make the most of your opportunities.

Many people will NEVER EVER make it to a t1 business school. I have seen brilliant scientists and engineers with multiple graduate degrees, great work accomplishments and great grades get turned away.

Its the opportunity of a lifetime, don't waste it. One quote that I posted over my study area was that "Losers focus on what they are going through, champions focus on what they are going to."

8- Remember that the first latin word on the business school crest in English means "discipline." There is a reason it is there.

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If I could do it all over again, I would still pick UT (even though there are other t1 schools that are easier). But that is only because I love to be challenged. I graduated in 2005, it is 2008, and I still have nightmares weekly about the workload/challenge of making the grade.

But at the end of the day, it opened up the world of making six figure incomes, and more interesting assignments. Someone else can have the boring assignments with lots of admin.

What will you be looking back on when you get out? A C average and not so great job prospects paying alot less then your friends, or will you be able to say the pain was worth it?

You can still change it now.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Millie

I'm creating a thread for people to help each other with questions, answers, general and specific advice, etc., about careers in finance, b-school, and other related topics. I know we have a lot of people potentially interested in this stuff, and a good handful of people who've either gone through it or are in the process of going through it (myself included).

How is Harvard going?

[Desx]

The bottom line is that you are going to a t1 business school. Did you think it would be easy? Everyone I know that went to McCombs (whether they were engineers or scientists) all said the same thing - THIS IS HARDER THAN I THOUGHT.

I didn't think it would be easy, but I didn't have any idea what "hard" meant.

Right now I have 4 grades that affect me.

D - Philosophy class
D - Biology
D - Financial Accounting (got a high B the second time)
C - Micro Economics

One thing I've had to adapt to was the time on tests. It was never that I didn't know the material for economics, I got 95% on what I completed, but I couldn't finish the test. I gave too much detailed information.

My overall Business GPA would be a 3.0 if I hadn't got that D the first semester in financial accounting.

The 2.2 isn't showing that im struggling with my classes.. it showing that im struggling with getting higher grades. I'm not going to be dropped from the school.

Thanks for the input.. I'll keep my progress updated.. test in intermediate accounting on wednesday.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Desx

I didn't think it would be easy, but I didn't have any idea what "hard" meant.

Right now I have 4 grades that affect me.

D - Philosophy class
D - Biology
D - Financial Accounting (got a high B the second time)
C - Micro Economics

One thing I've had to adapt to was the time on tests. It was never that I didn't know the material for economics, I got 95% on what I completed, but I couldn't finish the test. I gave too much detailed information.

My overall Business GPA would be a 3.0 if I hadn't got that D the first semester in financial accounting.

The 2.2 isn't showing that im struggling with my classes.. it showing that im struggling with getting higher grades. I'm not going to be dropped from the school.

Thanks for the input.. I'll keep my progress updated.. test in intermediate accounting on wednesday.

I knew it would be hard, but had no idea it would be as hard as it really was. It was hilarious (in hindsight, but not at the time), our first day of class, our professor tells us that we should have read the first five chapters before we even hit the class. Everyone was like what? And he says that if we read through the syllabus, it clearly said that we needed to read the first five chapters before we hit class on day one. One person who had a PhD in a science said screw this and quit on the spot. And it was kind of like the same pace from day one until the graduation day. You wake up every morning being behind in your studies, and every day you struggle to keep your head above water.


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D's are unacceptable, and regardless of the employer, they are going to want to know WTH happened. You might want to have a good story lined up (like parent, sibling, gf died and it impacted you bla bla bla) because they will look at your transcript and each individual semester's classes and grades.

Understand I am trying to help, and not be overly critical, but while you won't be dropped from school, when it comes interviewing time, you will be a pariah. With a 2.2, you will be interviewed by third-rate companies that will offer you 70% of what your classmates are making. First and second rate companies won't talk to you, no matter how sparkling your personality, how nice your suit, or how good your internships and references are. If you go to try to meet them at the Ford Career Center there (does Ford still sponsor the Career center?) and get on their schedule while they are interviewing others, they will be very blunt about not talking to sub 3.0 GPA students. They'll be pretty blunt about how you are wasting their time.

Pacing yourself at UT on tests is important. Most of the time, you don't have enough time to finish the test. Professors make exams this hard on purpose. You either need to know the details and can spit without pausing, or give more concise and to the point answers.

I never had a test at UT I couldn't finish, but I got close. The tests were four hours, and in some classes, it took all of four hours to do it.

At the end of the day, I think I got a 3.6 GPA because I was able to get through the tests. Maybe I didn't give the best answer, but I got an answer down on paper. As a Dean came in and said it during our first semester, he tried to give us tips to doing well. The exams are designed to be hell.

He held up someone's exam, and showed us that the person didn't finish the last 3 pages of a 17 page exam. His comment was about 20% of the exam was in the last few pages, and that even though this person had a near perfect 14 pages, his grade still started at an 80% because he never finished the exam. He asked how people thought they were going to do well if they couldn't even finish their tests.

His comment, and I firmly believe it to be true, was that this person either wasn't as prepared as they thought they were, or that they weren't pacing themselves. His comment was that people that weren't finishing had to figure out which problem it was (or is it a combo problem?), and do so quick.

If you think undergrad is bad, the MBA program was worse. Some classes we were given cases as the exam. You weren't given the case until class started. You had to read the entire case, go through the financials and know the details. Then you had to type up your case paper. And you had to do this all in less than four hours. Some cases are so complicated that they take three to four hours to read and re-read and be able to figure out what was going on. If you plan on going to a t1 MBA program like you said in an earlier post, realize that it is ten times more intense than the undergrad program.

Feel free to PM me for any comments/suggestions, or if you need a shoulder to cry on. During my first couple of semesters, I had upperclassmen pull me to the side, try to help and give advice, so I think I need to pay it forward.

[Millie]

To kind of echo what Lyrical says -- and I hate to say it, because you've said yourself that it's already kind of obvious to you -- get the grades up. :\ Grades matter a great deal to recruiters in most industries, and they certainly matter to MBA and PhD programs. If McCombs thinks you can't handle the curriculum now, they'll never let you into their MBA program. You are probably bright and extremely capable of doing well, but the only metric they have to go by is your grades. If your grades are bad, they won't even stop to consider the rest of your application. They'll move onto the next file in a heartbeat.

If making a concerted effort to bring up your GPA means dropping one or two extracurricular commitments, then so be it. Extracurricular involvement looks fine on an application or to a job recruiter, but grades are far more important. Like, an order of magnitude more important. I'd suggest taking an honest, critical look at your club and activity involvement and seeing what cuts can and should be made. I'd also hold off on starting any new involvements at this point. Your grades should be occupying 100% of your time right now, or close to it. If 90% isn't going to push them up, then you need to allocate more than 90% of your time and resources to the task.

This is especially important if you're applying to an MBA program after your current program. MBA programs like to see students who know how to manage their time effectively. This means not overextending yourself in club involvement at the expense of academic performance. Even if that's not what's going on, they'll look at your GPA and read you that way.

[Lyrical]

Other things that helped:

If professors provide you with tests from other semesters, it gives you an idea of what the test will be like. Not alot of people took the time to go over the previous semester tests, but I would actually work through them as if it was the test in front of me. So by the time the test came rolling around, I had already timed myself, and I could grade myself also. I knew that, by the previous tests, how my timing would be. For instance, when I took the exams, I knew that I needed an extra 30-45 minutes (and profs won't let you go over, so I knew I would flunk). So I had to pace myself better and learn the material better. The guys that didn't complete their exams didn't take the previous tests from other semesters, and had no idea how long it would take to fill out a 17 page exam. DON'T DOUBT THE POWER OF THE DRY RUN THROUGH. The only time this doesn't work is if the prof has changed the coursework substantially.

I also suggest going over books that tell you how to develop good study habits. As trite as the statement is, there is still some truth that you are only as good as your basics. In a t1 program, you are competing against some very smart, driven over-achievers, and McCombs doesn't sprinkle out A's - there is a limited amount they tend to put out for each course. You have no room for error against these guys. I am not a genius, but I beat people out of their A's by executing the basics of good studying and working harder than they did.

If you look at any NFL team, the best ones are the ones that block and tackle well and do the basics well. You can bump your GPA a point by focusing on the basics of good study habits.

[eyeoftheovermind]

2 years ago I quit school due to blah blah growing up issues blah blah. I was about 20 credits from a BA in Business Admin with a minor in e-commerce. Since then I got 4 IT certs (Net+, Sec+,CCNA, BSCI), top secret clearance and been working for the gov for a year. I'd really like to go back and finish my degree and progress to an MBA. My questions though are:

1. Financing going back to school? Banking agencies are not very lenient on lending in this market which might affect my ability to secure a student loan? Get a consulting job in networking part time while I finish school?

2. My gpa before I left was 2.8 so assuming while finishing my BA I retake some classes I tanked and ace the rest I can get it up to a 3.4 what is the likelyhood I can get into a T1 program? How much will my perfect SAT scores help? Will my top secret clearance, networking certs, gov. work lend any weight to my application?

More questions to come as I do more research. Thanks guys.

[Desx]

I was wondering if a high GMAT score would help my situation too. Any ideas?

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by eyeoftheovermind

2 years ago I quit school due to blah blah growing up issues blah blah. I was about 20 credits from a BA in Business Admin with a minor in e-commerce. Since then I got 4 IT certs (Net+, Sec+,CCNA, BSCI), top secret clearance and been working for the gov for a year. I'd really like to go back and finish my degree and progress to an MBA. My questions though are:

1. Financing going back to school? Banking agencies are not very lenient on lending in this market which might affect my ability to secure a student loan? Get a consulting job in networking part time while I finish school?

2. My gpa before I left was 2.8 so assuming while finishing my BA I retake some classes I tanked and ace the rest I can get it up to a 3.4 what is the likelyhood I can get into a T1 program? How much will my perfect SAT scores help? Will my top secret clearance, networking certs, gov. work lend any weight to my application?

More questions to come as I do more research. Thanks guys.

I'd just like to point out that there is nothing wrong with t2 schools. If you are having problems with sticking with it in undergrad (at your yet unnamed school), do you have any idea how much harder a t1 grad school is? Seriously, t2 schools are OK.

My cousin is attending Penn State (which is now a t2 grad school I think - ugh, it was t1 when I was there for undergrad) and she can expect to make 75K+ a year at graduation. There is nothing the matter with t2 programs, but I think you shouldn't go any lower, as you may not be recruited or see a pay bump. The only time programs make sense is if your company has a "deal" with a school, they require you to have an MBA and you plan on staying a your company for a long time.

While being different helps you get in, you are going to need more work experience than a year. T1 schools are probably not going to let you in with a year's work experience unless you were an Executive for that year or something like that. But a t2 school might be more lenient in this regard. My cousin got into a t2 school and she had zero work experience after undergrad.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Desx

I was wondering if a high GMAT score would help my situation too. Any ideas?

There isn't a GMAT score high enough or work experience rich enough (unless you are a VP or CEO already) to counter a sub 3.2-3.3 GPA for a t1 school. Unless you are in a school where they are known for giving C's (like when I was at Penn State, they were notorious for giving mostly C's for engineers, the average GPA of a Penn State engineer was like 2.4). Sorry, I am being honest. You might have some leeway already being at a t1 undergrad school, but not much. It might also help while you are at UT to get to know the staff for the MBA program, so at least you can try to network your way in.

Now is the time to just focus on doing better on what you are doing now. Grad school is much, much harder than undergrad in pretty much any t1 school.

If you think microecon or accounting is hard, wait until you get into grad school, and your professors don't repeat anything twice. There is zero hand holding and they refuse to repeat anything twice.

As my mother said when I was growing up, "Don't let your eyes be bigger than your stomach." Don't put more on your plate than you can handle.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Desx

I was wondering if a high GMAT score would help my situation too. Any ideas?

It certainly helps, and in fact it is necessary for top schools. But it's not going to magically erase a low GPA. In fact, a high GMAT with low GPA almost raises more questions than it answers. An admissions officer might look at that combination and wonder if you're a smart person who slacked off academically. That sort of profile really doesn't sit well with b-school admissions types. Even if it's not the truth, what matters is what they -- upon first glancing at your application and your file -- assume is the truth.

So the short, if annoying answer is that they want great grades and a great GMAT. Absent one of the two, you really need to be a superstar in some sort of professional accomplishment (say, for instance, you hold a patent or have spent 5 years microfinancing an AIDS clinic in Kenya).

If you make it to the end of your run at school and end up with a less than stellar GPA, the best thing to do is spend a few years trying to develop some extraordinary work experience. Taking a few years off to get more experience may seem like a bummer, but if you don't have the GPA to get into a T1 or T2 school right now, you're better off padding your profile than rushing in now. Also, keep in mind that with the economy where it is, these next few years are going to be record-breaking in terms of their competitiveness. Even across-the-board superstar applicants will have a tough time this year and probably next year.

[Desx]

I did an assessment of my GPA opportunity.

Here is how it looks right now. All grades are based on 3 credits unless stated otherwise ().

A(1), B, B, B, B, C, D, D, D = 2.2 GPA

If I stepped up my game and got a 4.0 this semester and next semester I would be sitting with:

A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A(1), B, B, B, B, C, D, D, D = 3.08 GPA

If another miracle happened and My last semester was all A's It could be something like this: 3.26 GPA



That's my overall school GPA, if I look at my major GPA:

B, B, D = 2.33 GPA

If things worked out with the next 4 accounting classes:

A, A, A, A, B, B, D = 3.28 GPA (Major)


That's the bottom line.. and from an outside stand point it would be ridiculous to assume all A's, but I know that's what I have to shoot for.

[Millie]

I think you're on the right track, and clearly you know what you need to do. Which is basically: allocate as much of your time and energy as it takes to get the best grades you possibly can. If you can pull off all As between now and graduation, great. If not, try for as many as you can. Cut out any and all extracurricular or leisure commitments that you think will stand in the way of making the grades. And definitely don't take on any new clubs or extracurriculars at this point in the game.

You'll definitely want to get some work experience (WE) under your belt after graduation, regardless of how the grades turn out. Even if they turn out for the best, you'll still want and need the WE. And the high GMAT. You can't really compromise on any of the three fundamentals (GPA, GMAT, WE) when shooting for a T1 or even a T2 school. And to be frank, T1 is going to be very difficult with your GPA even if it turns out to be your best-case scenario. A lot will be riding on your getting the best GPA you can get, scoring the highest GMAT you can score, and getting some solid -- hopefully exceptional -- WE under your belt. At least a few years' worth.

The average age of a b-school applicant is roughly 27, give or take a year at any particular school. So you have some time to turn things around. Just work your butt off, don't slack, don't let up, and stay focused.