Help with Business School, Careers in Finance, etc.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Kuriin

I am actually looking to go into business school for MIS (Management of Information Systems) and am very afraid of the GMAT. The highest math I've done is trigonometry and it's been a few years. I graduated from undergrad with a 3.7, so I figure my GPA is good enough.

How hard is the GMAT? What's the highest level of math that is on there? Actually, the same can be asked for GRE.

For me, I found the GMAT to be pretty hard. I suck at standardized tests, and to get into a t1, you need a stellar score. I've always sucked at standardized tests. I also am not the smartest guy out there, just the most determined. It took me eight months of study to break 700. But my work history was pretty good, since I had five promotions before I started and was already making decent jack before the program. I was managing a business unit that was doing a couple of hundred million annually, so that defintely helped. I also had awesome references, since I actually had a business associate who was the school's largest donation contributor. So when someone higher than the Dean of the business school was politicking for me, I already had pretty good exposure.

Many people don't realize that most schools look at the combo of GMAT score-references-work history, and if you are light in one area, you can overcome it by being better in the other two areas. My dean repeatedly said that someone with a light work history, but a stellar GMAT score and references could still get in the school.

I used Kaplan, and it did help me get the score I needed to get into a t1 school. The funny thing is that while I was on the low end of the GMAT spectrum for scores, I graduated at the top of my class.

The GMAT counts for very little. It might show you have a decent base level of intelligence, but that is it. It sure has very little to do with your future business acumen.

[Kuriin]

Thank you, Lyrical. My mother is pushing me to get into graduate school a year after undergrad and I keep telling her, "Look...my GRE/GMAT scores will most likely suck and graduate schools look for more than just test scores. You need work experience. The only way you're going to get into graduate school immediately after undergrad, you need pretty much a 4.0 and exceptional GRE/GMAT scores."

x_x I do plan on taking the course. I suck at standardized tests, myself.

[r3probate]

Originally Posted by Kuriin

Thank you, Lyrical. My mother is pushing me to get into graduate school a year after undergrad and I keep telling her, "Look...my GRE/GMAT scores will most likely suck and graduate schools look for more than just test scores. You need work experience. The only way you're going to get into graduate school immediately after undergrad, you need pretty much a 4.0 and exceptional GRE/GMAT scores."

x_x I do plan on taking the course. I suck at standardized tests, myself.

Yeah, I had to go over with the family how MBA programs that are worth the time and money won't accept me right now, even if I roll a 750+ GMAT. On the plus side, I already have my verbal GMAT stuff down hard, I've been going through the 11th Ed. official guide(s) with about 95% accuracy on the verbal shit, reading comprehension, crit. reasoning, and sentence correction. Only at about 75-85% on the quantitative part, though. Not bad for 6 or so weeks of study, but I always was pretty decent at standardized tests.

I recommend the forums at Beat The GMAT Forum for a resource on strategy and preparation - the forum owner posted about 300 flash cards that he made to study with that are pretty solid. They also have a few discounts for the forum for online test banks and such.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by r3probate

Yeah, I had to go over with the family how MBA programs that are worth the time and money won't accept me right now, even if I roll a 750+ GMAT. On the plus side, I already have my verbal GMAT stuff down hard, I've been going through the 11th Ed. official guide(s) with about 95% accuracy on the verbal shit, reading comprehension, crit. reasoning, and sentence correction. Only at about 75-85% on the quantitative part, though. Not bad for 6 or so weeks of study, but I always was pretty decent at standardized tests.

I recommend the forums at Beat The GMAT Forum for a resource on strategy and preparation - the forum owner posted about 300 flash cards that he made to study with that are pretty solid. They also have a few discounts for the forum for online test banks and such.

I hate to say it, because I'm sure that those of you like me will not want to hear it, but the verbal section on the GMAT counts for basically nothing. It contributes to your overall score, and inasmuch as it does, you want it to be high. But that's about it. Your quant score matters about 100x more than your verbal score. I learned this the hard way, being an exceptionally-strong-verbal and mediocre-quant student. Also, the essay questions count for absolutely nothing. Literally. Absolutely nothing. I have no idea why they're even on the test, because business schools don't even look at them.

Originally Posted by Kuriin

I am actually looking to go into business school for MIS (Management of Information Systems) and am very afraid of the GMAT. The highest math I've done is trigonometry and it's been a few years. I graduated from undergrad with a 3.7, so I figure my GPA is good enough.

How hard is the GMAT? What's the highest level of math that is on there? Actually, the same can be asked for GRE.

The math on the GMAT gets pretty hard, though not in the sense you're probably thinking of. It doesn't get "hard" in the sense that the math is very esoteric or advanced. Calculus and beyond are not on the test. At the highest level it maybe covers some introductory trig concepts. But by and large, it's mainly advanced algebra and geometry.

Why is that hard? Two reasons:

a) You haven't encountered algebra and geometry in such depth since 9th or 10th grade, and in most cases, you're very rusty.

b) The application of the algebra and geometry is extremely challenging. Applied math is much harder than conceptual math, obviously, and that's where the major difficulty on the GMAT comes into play. You'll be asked to solve questions you have no idea how to set up in the first place -- even if the math involved in solving them isn't terribly advanced.

[r3probate]

Oh yeah, I knew coming into this that the quantitative section would be the part that I really need to double up my efforts on. Re-learning all the fun tricks about the interior angles of a polygon and triangle math has been just wonderful. Not to mention the obscure algebra that I literally haven't done since middle school.

Are you serious about the essays not even making a difference in your 200-800 score? I was a little worried about those too because I haven't done real essay writing since my AP exams, but if they don't change my score at all then I probably won't even study them much. I can bullshit a 4 easily.

[r3probate]

Originally Posted by Millie

You'll be asked to solve questions you have no idea how to set up in the first place -- even if the math involved in solving them isn't terribly advanced.

Definitely agree with this, too. Learning how to set up word problems with variables is so pivotal because it's essentially boils down to using the same steps to solve many different problems, which will really help on your speed, too.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by r3probate

Oh yeah, I knew coming into this that the quantitative section would be the part that I really need to double up my efforts on. Re-learning all the fun tricks about the interior angles of a polygon and triangle math has been just wonderful. Not to mention the obscure algebra that I literally haven't done since middle school.

Are you serious about the essays not even making a difference in your 200-800 score? I was a little worried about those too because I haven't done real essay writing since my AP exams, but if they don't change my score at all then I probably won't even study them much. I can bullshit a 4 easily.

The trickiest part about the math is the application/setup, and yes, it's very middle schoolish. Had I taken the GMAT right after 9th or 10th grade, I'd probably have aced the math section entirely. I think that's the case for most people. It's really annoying having to delve back into this stuff at 25-28, which is the typical GMAT age range.

Also remember that you can't use a calculator on the test, so try to get good at doing math in your head, or at least very quickly on paper. Remember long division done by hand from 3rd grade? Welcome it back into your life, provided you even remember how to do it (which I didn't when I first sat down to study). Since younger generations are being raised increasingly dependent on calculators (And why not? In the real world, you always have one), standardized tests without calculators get harder and harder for everyone.

The essay questions don't factor into your score at all, and they only come into play if your verbal score is very weak or if you speak English as a second language. Basically, schools want to see if you're able to keep up in an environment where everything in class is taught in English, and a lot of esoteric and high-level English words are tossed around. If you're a native English speaker, and you do halfway decently on the verbal, you have a better chance of being hit by lightning indoors than you do of having your GMAT essays looked at by the schools. They're a notorious waste of time, and a red herring when studying for the test.

Basically, I recommend doing a couple practice essays just to get a feel for how they're done, and to get used to writing a few solid and well-argued paragraphs in under 30 minutes apiece. But don't waste much more time than that on essay prep during your GMAT studies. If you walk out of the test with anything from a 4 to a 6, you're good to go. If you're doing a 3 or below, chances are you are a terrible writer or don't speak English as a first language. If you're doing practice essays and getting 3s, you might want to brush up a tiny bit. But even still, don't waste too much time doing it.

The myth that schools will read your GMAT essays to get a sense for how well you construct logical arguments is just that: a myth. Admissions offices look at your application essays, not your GMAT essays. They don't have the time or the inclination to bother with GMAT essays.

The only instance wherein a GMAT essay score might come into play for you will be as a "tiebreak" number against a rival applicant who matches your profile in every single way. Let's say you get a 700, with a roughly equal verbal and math breakdown comprising that 700, and you get a 6 on your essay. Now let's say that you're up against another applicant who matches your profile and GMAT score exactly, except he or she got a 5. In that case, maybe your essay helps you out. But since a perfectly identical rival applicant is only theoretical, this will almost never happen. Someone else's 710 with a 5 essay score beats your 700 with a 6, for instance. Someone else's 700 with a 5 essay score beats your 700 with a 6 if their 700 had a higher math subscore. Etc.

[Zenya]

Hmm, dunno if my reply to this thread will do anyone here any good, as I've gotten my Masters (MSc (Economics) as the term goes) degree in Europe (Finland to be precise).

I'll just give you a short run-through of my career so far, mostly to show you that in Europe, at least, it seems to matter little what you've majored in and matter a lot who you are and how ambitious and determined you are to get where you want to be.

The program in business school that I followed was called (I'm translating from Swedish, here) Quantitative Systemization and Planning. In practice this means I had two majors: statistics (manily econometrics) and computer science focusing on operating systems, databases and economical software applications.

While I was studying, I worked for the computer center of the business school for a bit. My work included the development of the library system of my b-school (there was about 5 of us working on it), which we also later sold to interested companies. When I was close to graduating (had my dissertation half-way done), I taught programming (freshman level) for 1 semester before starting my job at IBM Finland.

Then, a tad later, I got married, had kids and left the workforce for a number of years (yeah, I'm pretty olde: my son now attends the same business school I and my now x-husband went to; and my daughter is thinking about taking the same route). Stay-at-home mums ftw!

Anyway, I've recently returned to the wonderful world of work , and am now in investment banking - no no, all's fine! The bank I work for hasn't touched securities based on sub-prime mortgages or lent money to people who have little to no hope of paying it back. Also, the investments we had in Lehman Brothers and the like were so small they didn't make much of a dent in our balance-sheet. Our liquidity remains solid and our customers loyal, so I forsee no huge problems up ahead.

When you begin to work after b-school/return to work after having stayed at home for a while, you won't get a high paying exec job right off the bat. Interviews can only tell employers so much about a person; it's what you do for your company that shows your ilk to them, so to speak. If you shine, you will get a promotion. And then another. And then another. Always.

When it comes to grades, not a single company I've worked for (including IBM Finland) has been interested to see my grades or graduation diplomas at the time of the interviews. They have all taken my word for it (although I've always taken copies of them to my interviews). Instead, I've gone through extensive interview processes = being interviewed by several people, both in a row and at a time, for several days. No clue, if this is a European thing only.

So over here, it's who you are, the fact that you have been able to study and have had the stamina to graduate, that opens the door for you. What you do after that is entirely up to you. (Caution: if you want a high paying exec job over here, you need a degree from a business school; your persona or work experience is not enough.)

And yes, I do believe we are, and already have been in a recession for a while now .

[r3probate]

So I'm chugging along with my GMAT prep while I man the phones at work, I've knocked out the OG11 guide cover to cover and have a Kaplan quant review book. My practice CAT scores go something like this so far:

MGMAT Free Q40 V36 630 11/07
MGMAT Free2 Q47 V34 670 11/10
MGMAT CAT1 Q47 V35 680 11/13

I'm really surprised that I've been cocking up the verbal section more than the quant half, to be quite honest. I'm shooting for a Q50 V40 for... about a 730, I guess, though I'd be happy with keeping the Q47 and making up more ground on the verbal part just to get my score about 700.

Anyone have recommendations for practice CATs other than MGMAT and the official GMATPrep? Other places I've read agree that the MGMAT tests are slightly harder on the quant side (more multi-step questions) and a little... fuzzier on the critical reasoning / reading questions on the verbal. There are some extremely ambiguous and nit-picky questions, but I guess that's what it takes.

[aychamo_aycono]

Originally Posted by Desx

I'll be the first to reply...

I'm currently at the McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin.. working towards my BBA in Accounting, or more specifically auditing.

My interests lie primarily in Finance, but I believe a strong background in Accounting is more powerful at this point in time. The competition for employment with Finance majors is also disheartening. My goal is to establish an investment firm that doesn't limit its self to specific practices ie. ETFs, sector rotation, retirement management, real estate, etc.

I plan on applying to the MPA program next spring providing everything works out correctly. Hopefully from there ill go for a MBA in Finance / PHD in Economics - depending on what opportunities present themselves.

One of my biggest issues is that I transferred here last year from a community college, that had given me horrible advising. During my time there I worked at Best Buy roughly 25 to 30 hours a week and ended up with a 3.79 GPA.

After moving to Austin, finding an apartment, and still working with Best Buy, I found that McCombs was overwhelming compared to CC (some of my credits didn't transfer)

After my first year here at McCombs my GPA is a 2.2. The transition [from CC + living with my parents + working] to [living on my own + working + being in one of the top business schools] has been a huge adjustment.

Right now I'm at the point where I'm scared that I've lost many great opportunities due purely to my GPA.

Being almost 23 and having a late start on college, I feel pressure to continue developing myself outside of college - which is why I'm working on two startup companies and trading stocks online. This semester I've started an organization focusing on finance, accounting, marketing, etc.

My performance in my classes has greatly improved, but I won't have enough time to really correct my GPA to the point where it needs to be. I find that I'm much more motivated than the students I'm in school with.

I'd appreciate any advice other than "raise your GPA," which is what I'm focusing 90% of my time on.

if you get phd please dont ever refer to yourself as dr

besides that, congratulations, you are kicking ass in life

[Desx]

haha.. yea I wouldn't. If other people want to make that mistake then that's their problem.

[aychamo_aycono]

Man you got nothing to worry about, you're going to do great

[Cheers]

I apologize for not reading through this whole thread, but see that many of you are speaking of grad school. Saw some people talking about work experience, and that may be true, but I recommend going into grad school right out of high school.

I did pretty well in college, graduated with a 3.7 from a California state school, finishing my degree in 2.5yrs (summers, winters, excess units, etc.) I took the GREs during my last year of college because I though I'd be going into a doctoral program in psychology (that was my major). My program had a lot of research involved, too much. I did well, but i dislike statistics and burnt out pretty bad. Before graduation I declined the programs I was accepted to and decided to join the military. I ended up joining the Marine Corps as an officer, had some great experience, learned a lot, matured etc. Right now I find myself in Iraq (year long deployment) training the Iraqi Army how to run their military. Now, in the last few year's I'm begun a Master's degree in management, which I'm approx 25% done in (Embry Riddle, I work in aviation logistics). The reason I'm in this program is because it is what I do for a living and my experience got me in, it isn't necessarily what I wanted to get into.

So as I was saying, now I'm looking at getting out when I get back. I want to get into grad for an MBA/Finance to be an investment banker. I'd call it a passion, I've begun investing quite a bit over the past couple years and really enjoy it. The problem that I'm having is that I took GRE's, not a GMAT. I've been away from school for so long and I just don't think that way anymore. A lot of the more competitive i-banking programs don't really care to accept anyone over the age of 25 into their internship/starter programs. I do not have any past investing or banking experience outside of my own portfolio.

My plan-B was to go to bed school if that didn't work out. I used to think I couldn't do the medical/blood and guts thing. In my experience out here and in the military, even though I'm not a medic, I've seen plenty of blood, guts, and treated plenty of serious injuries. I like it. I don't, however, like the idea of starting so late and staring at 8years of schooling (4 school, 4 residency). What I do like is that with an MD I can go into psychiatry. I just don't know how well I'll adjust to all of the schooling, especially since I was not pre med and the material will be completely new.

Well, in all my rambling I hope you see where I'm coming from. No matter what experience you get, I think it's best to push through school and keep going. Maybe do an internship or something, but just stay in, stay involved, keep your mind engaged. Take the GMAT/GRE/LSAT/med entrance exam while you're in school and retake every year or something. You never know if you'll want to take advantage of any of them. That is very, very important.

By the way, I'm not slamming my military experience. I would recommend it to anybody. I'm thankful for everyone I've met and everything I've learned. I just with I'd have taken all of those tests while I was in school and stayed with that material. I think they only last 5 or 7 years or something. I've more to say, but have to run. Thanks for listening.

[Desx]

One of my professors at McCombs got a degree then went into the military.. Was in a leadership position like you are now.

He achieved all of this because he found his niche.. leading and managing people. He also stresses the fact that Military experience is huge in management positions. Studies have shown time and again that people who had military experience were viewed better in many ways, had more respect, better at motivation, etc. (Most organizational behavior books will tell you this, and expand on it more).

Management cuts horizontally across all forms of business.. accounting, finance, marketing, supply chain, etc. The fact that you have a psychology degree + military experience + ambition puts you in a great situation for a management position.

You may feel that you don't want to manage people, but I'm assuming you are decent at it. You wen't through 4 years of school to learn about behavior and you work in team environment everyday (plus the stories you gave).

I-banking is the "pop star" of business, meaing there are lots of areas to be just as successful if not more in, than I-banking.

You can't go wrong with an MBA in finance.. even if you don't get the investment banker job, you will get a great job somewhere in the financial sector.

[Cheers]

That's encouraging. What did he get his graduate degree(s) in? I thought about the management thing, but had no idea how I'd do it. It really is a different world. Here, when somebody is fucked up, I can simply tell them to un-fuck themselves. You don't have to worry about feelings much, just get the job done, bottom line. First is mission accomplishment, then troop welfare. But different in the civilian world, feelings and shit. A buddy of mine who got out has to take "sensitivity" training once a week at his job because they think he has issues.

To be honest with you, I wouldn't even know the first thing to do when I got out...how does it even work? Go to grad school, get MBA, then start applying? To what kind of companies? IBM or something? It's strange, it's just not something I really thought about, even in school. With psych the only applications you thought about were those to some doctoral program.

Anyway, all you business folks...give me some ideas from those of you who are fresh in the industry. Aren't job prospects bad right now with the economy like shit?