Help with Business School, Careers in Finance, etc.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Desx

I did an assessment of my GPA opportunity.

Here is how it looks right now. All grades are based on 3 credits unless stated otherwise ().

A(1), B, B, B, B, C, D, D, D = 2.2 GPA

If I stepped up my game and got a 4.0 this semester and next semester I would be sitting with:

A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A(1), B, B, B, B, C, D, D, D = 3.08 GPA

If another miracle happened and My last semester was all A's It could be something like this: 3.26 GPA



That's my overall school GPA, if I look at my major GPA:

B, B, D = 2.33 GPA

If things worked out with the next 4 accounting classes:

A, A, A, A, B, B, D = 3.28 GPA (Major)


That's the bottom line.. and from an outside stand point it would be ridiculous to assume all A's, but I know that's what I have to shoot for.

Go for it. It isn't impossible to make all A's at UT, but it is tough. They just don't hand A's out. My cohort had one guy who almost made a 4.0 (one grade stopped him). They made a big deal about it, because nobody had gotten that close to making a 4.0. They had a big presentation about how someone almost made a 4.0 LOL.

Don't leave anything on the table at the end of each day. You are going to need a 3.0 if you want a chance in hell at interviewing with decent companies, as well as get into a t1 school. Like Millie said, even then, you are going to need a great work experience (promotions don't hurt) and a great GMAT score.

And like I said, it doesn't hurt that you are at McCombs now, and can pop into the Dean's office to network. I'd wait until you get closer to graduation though. You could probably develop contacts, and the staff is friendly enough that you could call them after graduation to "stay in their windshield."

[eyeoftheovermind]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

I'd just like to point out that there is nothing wrong with t2 schools. If you are having problems with sticking with it in undergrad (at your yet unnamed school), do you have any idea how much harder a t1 grad school is? Seriously, t2 schools are OK.

My cousin is attending Penn State (which is now a t2 grad school I think - ugh, it was t1 when I was there for undergrad) and she can expect to make 75K+ a year at graduation. There is nothing the matter with t2 programs, but I think you shouldn't go any lower, as you may not be recruited or see a pay bump. The only time programs make sense is if your company has a "deal" with a school, they require you to have an MBA and you plan on staying a your company for a long time.

While being different helps you get in, you are going to need more work experience than a year. T1 schools are probably not going to let you in with a year's work experience unless you were an Executive for that year or something like that. But a t2 school might be more lenient in this regard. My cousin got into a t2 school and she had zero work experience after undergrad.

I was going to George Mason University because it was in my hometown. My problem with "sticking with it" as you said was just the issues that I've since dealt with. I loaded 4 courses on myself in addition to my full time job over the summer and pulled 3 A's and a B+ to show myself I could.

The point of going for an MBA is not a bump in pay, the salary band for my job starts at 60k. I just love business and needed a stable job in the mean time while I worked out my issues.

So back to topic is it typical for your MBA to be financed by the school or a company? Or will I still need to look into student loans?

Without questioning my perseverance how is my viability for the t1 schools based on the information given?

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by eyeoftheovermind

I was going to George Mason University because it was in my hometown. My problem with "sticking with it" as you said was just the issues that I've since dealt with. I loaded 4 courses on myself in addition to my full time job over the summer and pulled 3 A's and a B+ to show myself I could.

The point of going for an MBA is not a bump in pay, the salary band for my job starts at 60k. I just love business and needed a stable job in the mean time while I worked out my issues.

So back to topic is it typical for your MBA to be financed by the school or a company? Or will I still need to look into student loans?

Without questioning my perseverance how is my viability for the t1 schools based on the information given?

I could blow sunshine up your rear, but it wouldn't do you any good.

Assuming you get up to a 3.4, and can give a good explanation to admissions why you dropped (they don't want to let people in that are going to drop), you are still going to need a great GMAT score and work experience. I am not sure there are any t1 schools that take people with one year of work experience. So you might want to get another few years down your belt, or settle for a t2 school.

If pay isn't an issue (I think t1 schools probably average six figures to start), and you want to go to school to just learn, t2 isn't bad. At least you wouldn't be working day and night and would have more balance in your personal life.

As far as getting employers to fund you, it all depends on them. My employer funded 65% of the cost of my program (for a full-time degree) and paid me a salary. I was able to avoid student loans. But I'd say that the percentage of people who are getting an employer funded full-time degree is probably no more than 5% of the total. I thank God I didn't have to deal with debt, some of my classmates went 100K into debt to get through the program (because they had to put living expenses in the loan also). Deals like this are pretty rare - especially since there were no strings attached. Most people that had deals with their companies had to sign an employment contract saying they would stay on with the company for a few years after they got their degree. If you aren't an exceptional perfomer at work and aren't politically connected, it is going to be almost impossible to get funded for a full time degree and a salary (when you aren't working on the job for two years).

You really should go to your HR portal on your company intranet and see what programs are on it. Understand, that getting sponsored is extremely rare and will only happen if you are thought highly of. But there might be other programs out there that could help defray the costs, and your employer might have some deal worked out with an MBA program also.

If debt is an issue, you also might want to consider night time programs that give you a full time degree (so when you apply for jobs, no one can tell the difference between your degree or a full time degree). In t1, these are pretty rare and not for the faint of heart. You would be keeping your day job, but competing with full time students (and taking the same classes as them). At the end, you would get a full time degree, if you can handle the hours.

You could also consider an Exec Ed MBA. Just realize that with an Exec Ed MBA, it is not going to garner you the interviews that a full time or night time degree will.

Exec Ed means that the students go to class every other weekend. You have class all day Saturday and Sunday. You then get assignments and readings for two weeks.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by eyeoftheovermind

how is my viability for the t1 schools based on the information given?

There's really no magic formula for getting into a top business school (or law school, or any graduate school). Excellent standardized test scores and excellent grades, coupled with excellent work experience, get you invited to the dance, but they don't guarantee that you'll be admitted. Think of them as minimums that need to be met. At the very least, you will need exceptional work experience coupled with strong to exceptional GPA and GMAT scores. From there, the strength of your application is all about how you sell yourself and spin your story.

Your application should answer the following questions very convincingly:

a) I can handle the work
b) I need an MBA education
c) I need an MBA education at this very point in my life at this particular school because of X, Y, Z, etc.
d) I plan to be or do ____ with this MBA education
e) My life's work up to this point is part of a master plan that I need the MBA to help achieve
f) My work experience to date has been in service of my master plan, but I've also learned a lot of things along the way, such as...

That's the basic framework. Of course, you'll want to insert some personalization and creativity into the mix. But the bottom line is that you need to tell the story of a through f by way of your essays, your recs, your GPA, your GMAT, your extracurriculars, and your interview (should you be selected for one).

It's very hard to look at people's stats and tell them whether they'll get in or not. But I can look at your stats and tell you if you have a shot. Falling within the range of a top school's metrics is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for admission. That's why reducing applicants to a few sentences about stats and WE is an inexact science. The best people can do is tell you whether or not you'd be wasting an admissions committee's time by applying.

This is a good jumping-off point if you're seriously considering the application process:

Amazon.com: How To Get Into the Top MBA Programs, 4th Edition (How to Get Into the Top Mba Programs): J.D., Richard Montauk: Books

Montauk's book is widely considered a gold standard among application strategy books. It's not a GMAT study guide, because it assumes you've already done well on the GMAT. So buy a separate GMAT book or enroll in a GMAT course, because this book doesn't really spend too much time on that subject.

[Desx]

Lyrical and Millie, what are your positions / company? Millie your in a MBA program right now?

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Desx

Lyrical and Millie, what are your positions / company? Millie your in a MBA program right now?

You asked, so I will tell. I don't like going into much detail on my personal life (I like internet anonymity), but here goes.

Since graduating from Penn State, I started off as a low paid grunt at an old economy manufacturing company (a Fortune 50 company). By the time I entered grad school, I had earned five promotions (at the rate of one a year) and was already in a Junior Executive type position with a responsibility of about $200 million in revenue annually and managing at least a thousand people. So for me, I picked a t1 school for the challenge of competing with some of the smartest people in the world. I constantly thrive on new challenges, and I hate routine. If I am not thrown too much responsibility, I get bored. Also, it is very clear that there is only so far you can go at our age without an MBA. School to me wasn't about a pay raise, but business really interests me (it always has) and I wanted more interesting assignments that only have a t1 MBA would provide.

After I suckered my employer into paying for my education, I took on another Junior Exec role at a Fortune 200 company. My first job out of school was a role that was basically a "Regional CFO" role with a Fortune 200 company. It had a P&L responsibility for a unit with revenues in excess of $2B annually and had management responsibilities for thousands of people. If the VP was out travelling, you were running the show entirely and did their job in their stead. They only considered t1 MBA graduates for the position.

They worked me like a Roman Orchard field slave, but it was cool to do work for the CEO and the VP's. The CEO would ask you to do a company-wide analysis and make recommendations, and then the next day he'd be on CNBC explaining it. It had hours like an Investment Banker's. You would get calls at 4 AM in the morning from some VP asking for info and analysis, or 11 PM at night. You'd be on call pretty much 24 hours a day, but it sure would be weird to get emails and blackberry messages from VP's, the President and the CEO from a Fortune 500 firm asking you for advice. It was a seven day a week gig and forget taking vacation.

After a decade of working for Corporate America, I want to be self-employed. Honestly, if I am going to work like an owner, I am going to get rewarded for it. I've had a direct personal responsibility of billions in revenue and managed thousands, but to me, life won't be complete until I have several successful businesses, where I use my own money and not the shareholders'. I want to be a real businessperson and not just some guy managing corporate money.

And yeah, I knew alot of self employed people that either that were business contacts or school contacts that were making serious jack. Your average t1 MBA makes six figures the first year, yet I routinely ran into self employed people that made that a month. They didn't work any harder than I did (some didn't work hard at all) and they had the same people management, marketing and finance decisions that I had to make working for big corporations.

Maybe the grass is always greener, but I want to see. I get real bored without new challenges and can't sit in the same position too long - it gets too routine.


-------------------------------------------------------

If you are asking me if it was worth it, the answer was yes. Not from the standpoint of starting pay (I was already making 90K a year when I started the program), but from broadened horizons and new assignments.

For me, being a Black male from a poor neighborhood, getting a t1 MBA was worth it. It is instant street cred anywhere, whether I am talking to a VP, CEO, billionaire or in the small business world. You are instantly in the "old boy's club" regardless of race or poor beginnings.

That's about all I want to say about me.

[r3probate]

I like to read success stories that begin with [State College] and [Low Paid Grunt] because that's where I'm right the fuck at now. Just graduated from Auburn and am working at a regional bank (I think the third largest in the Southeast, now that Wachovia bit the dust)... but my job is pretty much the bottom of the barrel as far as grunt work goes - I answer the phone and talk to loan officers all day long. I'm on the Secondary Marketing desk in the mortgage department at my bank. Everyone else in Secondary Marketing here started at my job, but I'm not really sure there's enough room for promotion here. I just know I'm making (FAR FAR) less than I wanted right out of university and not really doing any kind of analysis, just pushing numbers around in the loan system.

The upside is I have lots of time to study up for my GMAT during slow times.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Desx

Lyrical and Millie, what are your positions / company? Millie your in a MBA program right now?

Yes. Just started at HBS. Prior to this I did law and undergrad at Yale and spent a few years working in Hollywood. My undergraduate grades started out pretty far from stellar (thanks to EQ, hehe), but eventually I was able to turn them around and they held steady at about a 3.5 or 3.6 overall.

Mainly it was my solid law school performance and unique career profile that got me in the door at b-school. If not for the law and entertainment backgrounds (two things they rarely see at b-schools, even in the top tier), I'd probably have been shown the exit right after my interview and never contacted again. I'm one of those really annoying types who kicks butt on standardized tests, too, so that helped me out a bit. Also, I think my essays were pretty good, and I got some nice recs from my office.

[Desx]

It's crazy hearing these stories.. I never really cared too much about which school I went to until recently. I do still believe that success depends on performance ultimately, especially if you are starting your own business.

What route are you taking in business Millie?

[rinthea]

Originally Posted by Millie

Yes. Just started at HBS. Prior to this I did law and undergrad at Yale and spent a few years working in Hollywood. My undergraduate grades started out pretty far from stellar (thanks to EQ, hehe), but eventually I was able to turn them around and they held steady at about a 3.5 or 3.6 overall.

Mainly it was my solid law school performance and unique career profile that got me in the door at b-school. If not for the law and entertainment backgrounds (two things they rarely see at b-schools, even in the top tier), I'd probably have been shown the exit right after my interview and never contacted again. I'm one of those really annoying types who kicks butt on standardized tests, too, so that helped me out a bit. Also, I think my essays were pretty good, and I got some nice recs from my office.

dont underestimate a pretty smile

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Desx

It's crazy hearing these stories.. I never really cared too much about which school I went to until recently. I do still believe that success depends on performance ultimately, especially if you are starting your own business.

What route are you taking in business Millie?

You know, it's funny because I still kinda have no idea. :\

Originally I was thinking about investment banking -- but then the financial crisis sort of made that decision for me. So that was out. Now I'm debating between consulting, which I kind of think I'll hate, and maybe marketing or brand management and/or general management at a game company. Would love to find a way to integrate my gaming interests with my business background, but I really have no idea how valuable or how valued MBAs are in that sector. If anyone out there knows, please feel free to chime in! Also, just to get it out there, you couldn't possibly pay me enough money to get me to work in law. Ugh. Putting that degree to use would be all well and good, but no thanks on the legal profession.

Originally Posted by rinthea

dont underestimate a pretty smile

Ha. Well, they chose me for an interview before they met me, so hopefully I at least qualified on paper. I also come across as very friendly, but stupid in interviews. I'm a much better writer than I am an on-the-spot, in-person question answerer. It's not that I'm dumb; it's just that I'm one of those people who has no common sense. But all said and done, I thought my interview went pretty well. Could have been better, but also could have been a lot worse. I've heard some real horror stories about interviews, and I'm thankful mine wasn't one of them.

[prescient63]

I'm just going to throw out there that I really like the manhattan gmat book series. It's pretty nice to be able to look at your weakest spots and pick up only that book. Plus, personally, it helps me focus my study sessions a bit easier, but I'm kind of ADD and can't even study at home. Which is weird I've never been able to. I always leave the house with my iPod because if I don't I end up super distracted. While I'm on that topic does anyone know where I can buy the grease board things that they use now?

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by prescient63

I'm just going to throw out there that I really like the manhattan gmat book series. It's pretty nice to be able to look at your weakest spots and pick up only that book. Plus, personally, it helps me focus my study sessions a bit easier, but I'm kind of ADD and can't even study at home. Which is weird I've never been able to. I always leave the house with my iPod because if I don't I end up super distracted. While I'm on that topic does anyone know where I can buy the grease board things that they use now?

I used Kaplan (including the class visits) because my employer paid for it. I stink at standardized tests. I did see a 150 point improvement by taking Kaplan. I liked the mixture of self-study, and I liked how you could re-take the class if you didn't get a score high enough for free.

When I was looking at non-ranked schools, the first test I took would have gotten me into them (I didn't study at all). But to get a score high enough to get into a t1 school took me months of study. Ever since I was a kid, I have absolutely stink at fill in the oval tests.

But its like the Kaplan people tell you, the GMAT score doesn't measure how smart or business savvy you are. It doesn't even measure how well you will do in grad school. It just tells the school that there is a base level of intelligence to work with. I know people that got almost perfect GMAT scores that ended up having lower GPA's than I did once we got in the program. Another friend of mine in my study group had an almost perfect GMAT score, yet we ended up with the same GPA.

[Millie]

I think the key to the GMAT is focusing really heavily on your weaknesses. My weak area was quant, so I focused close to 100% of my time studying the math. I took maybe one verbal practice test, just to get a feel for it, but then avoided verbal altogether and ground down on the math. Your mileage may vary; you may be better at math than at verbal, in which case, allocate your time accordingly. Though I will say that the math section counts for a lot more than the verbal section in the grand scheme of things. I've heard of plenty of schools that reject applicants on the basis of a low math score, but I've never heard of any that will kick you out for a weak verbal with high math. Unless your verbal is so low that your fluency in English comes into question, that is.

[Prime]

How much work experience do you generally need before going to B school? I am going to graduate in 2-3 years with a masters in engineering but I think I would like to eventually go to a top tier business school. Also is it generally harder to get into a top school without an undergrad in business?