McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[Adam Jones]

Originally Posted by Gilgamel

Yes yes Bush is not a fiscal conservative, I know this. I also know if you think a split white house and congress would spend more than an Obama green light for Pelosi and Reid you are delusional. And once you pass those entitlement programs you can't get rid of them, it's political suicide.

As an Obama-leaning Independent, I actually agree with you in this respect. I am currently favoring him in spite of several of the expansionist policies elucidated in his "Blueprint." Rather, I simply feel more confident in an Obama cabinet than a McCain cabinet when it comes to their respective abilities to deal with serious national issues. Given McCain's penchant for brashness -- as exhibited brilliantly over the weekend -- and my own personal belief (which I fully intend to research over the next few weeks) that he will surround himself with head-bobbing yes-men, I feel that a Republican administration will be handicapped by its fervently-held beliefs, and will be unyielding to criticism and second thought.

Conversely, I think -- somewhat ironically, given the relative "experience" difference -- that Obama's administration will be more adaptive in the complex situations that will inevitably arise over the next four years. I'm not leaning towards him on the hope that he will "change" Washington (at least, not in the revolutionary way that he has platformed on), but, rather, because he has shown himself to be an astoundingly astute politician. As evinced by the orchestration of his candidacy, from the relatively late announcement of his bid (shielding him from more intense scrutiny that would have nipped him in the bud), to the defeat of a deeply entrenched, for-all-intents incumbent, to the subsequent re-unification of a severely splintered Democratic party, Obama has exhibited the qualities of a very keen statesman.

In fact, my only hope for Obama is that his radical-left agenda issues are nothing more than pandering. And why couldn't they be? He's already shown that he pandered on the platform of change, on the issue of troop drawdowns in Iraq. Why not these other radical ideas?

Elections are always about the lesser of two evils. I've weighed (am weighing, I suppose) the candidates' Cabinets versus their public agendas, have accounted for the possibility that said agenda in respect to Obama is simply pandering, and feel that the risk vs. reward favors the Democrat at this point in time. I don't feel great about him, but, right now, I feel a helluva lot better about him than I do the McCain/Palin ticket.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Etoille

2. it makes her the last fucking person on the planet qualified to tell ANYONE or ANY school how to raise and educate children.

I wouldn't go to that extreme. There are ton of teen pregnancies in this country. At some point the responsibility has to rest with the teens. I do blame her for pushing education that has no teaching of safe sex, but rather abstinance which never works. However that is the standard teachings a lot of children in this country get. I don't think it undermines her parenting as much as the entire ideaology of abstinance.


My personal opinion on the whole election at this point?

McCain fucked up big time. I can honestly say up until this nomination I was on the wall. I generally associate myself with the Democrats. But I'm very much for small government staying the fuck out of my business. I'd be a staunch republican if they actually did that like they say they do.

Prior to the election McCain had a very good record of being a bi-partisan moderate willing to cross party lines and get people to work together. This is why I would vote for him, I like Obama, but I have major concerns with how partisan he is. I know right now McCain has gone all conservative to pander to his base, but his record speaks stronger I wouldn't for a second think he wouldn't be a moderate once in office.

However, I don't think I could vote for him now with her as his running mate. Not even for the damage its done to his judgement, but rather my concern with her becoming the Commander in Chief. If he was in his 50's with no history of medical diseases this would be a non-issue, for instance Bush. It terrifies me to think of Cheney as the president, but I haven't really been that concerned over it, because he's more likely to drop dead than Bush is. But with McCain there is legitimate concern. At his age, and with his medical history the chances of his Vice President becoming president are not nearly as farfetched. And because that medical history includes cancer he doesn't even need to die. If there was a situation where he had to start undergoing intense chemotherapy, or radiation treatment he could be in a situation where he may need to step down as president just because he is incapable of running the country at that time.

No way in hell do I ever want that woman running this country.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Bullshit, I've INVITED people to dispute every fact I've laid out and what have we ever gotten?

"WAAAA KHORUM CALLED ME A NIGNOG BANZORS HIM!!!"

I've provided neutral and even LIBERAL sources about Obama and the left's hypocrysies and what do we get?

"LEWL Khorum underlined and CAPITALIZED and changed text colors /point /laugh"

IRBitch has provided exactly the same volume of supporting evidence for Obama's capacity to lead anything other than the Woods Fund founded by a Palestinian Terror financier and you think he's extreme?

Extremism implies a factual basis for heartfelt convictions, and by that definition NONE of the liberals around here are anything but the hokey poseurs who cling to the shallow, second-hand disposable idealism of the blatantly opportunistic.

honey youre smart enough to know that part of your delivery is more extreme than his, more often more of a direct attack on the poster themselves (than IRB does), and smart enough to know that a few ppl around here know the difference.

further, you could also care less if you get banned.

btw when i change text colors they call me your protege.

[Sharmai]

Adam Jones Well Done. +1 Sir

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by brekk

I wouldn't go to that extreme. There are ton of teen pregnancies in this country. At some point the responsibility has to rest with the teens. I do blame her for pushing education that has no teaching of safe sex, but rather abstinance which never works. However that is the standard teachings a lot of children in this country get. I don't think it undermines her parenting as much as the entire ideaology of abstinance.

Eh fair call.

Did you know she also during her term as mayor was one of those "OMGZORZ BAN TEH BAD BOOKZ FROM TEH LIBRARIEZ THINK OF THE KIDZ" people?

i love those people. especially in the age of the interwebs.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Sunder

Exactly. But none of the conservatives of this board want to even approach this topic. When I pointed out that his selection of Palin was in a temper-tantrum reaction to being told "Hell no" on Lieberman/Ridge, all the McCain cock slurpers passed right over it and headed straight for the next Words of Insanity by IRB or Sharmai. They know that McCain is taking a sound and well deserved beating on the judgment issue atm and they are just full of HOPE that something at the RNC will CHANGE the narrative of this campaign soon.

How much HOPE and fucking CHANGE have your New-Deal socialists visitted to the poor of this country?

How much HOPE have you inflicted on the poor when after four decades of Welfare your New Deal socialism has so thoroughly provided free fish to them that they no longer have ANY FUCKING DESIRE to learn how to fish for themselves.

How much HOPE have you instilled to the same poor folks who have watched every penniless immigrant community come to this country with even less resources than they do work, strive and come out as the affluent members of American society like the Italians, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Filipinos, the Polish, the Serbs, the Mexicans, the Armenians and the Vietnamese while they themselves watch history leave them behind.

How much CHANGE has New Deal socialism brought to the HOUSING situation of America's poor when what it has actually done is CONCENTRATE the poor "trouble populations" into soviet-style housing CAMPS where police and government control can be focused on their every move?

How much HOPE have you seen in the social security system that is DOOMED TO FAIL in less than a decade? How much CHANGE has Barack Obama enumerated for that system? Or for education? Or for taxes?

Oh wait, he hasn't proposed ANY changes to Medicare or Social Security other than to fight the only genuine chances of meaningful transformation in either body: PRIVATIZATION.

There's a difference in the Changes that McCain embodied in his career championing MORE GENUINE HEALTHCARE REFORM than Clinton and Obama combined. There's a difference in the Hope that Palin engendered when she marched against her own party to sweep away the vicious partnership between government and big oil.

There's a difference between HOPE and WISHFUL THINKING, and that difference is called ACTION.

[Leto Eu`Acumen]

Originally Posted by brekk

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KIDS PREGNANCY!

It does nothing but hurt all your valid points. Having issues with her handleing of her pregnancy/labor and still flying. That is perfectly valid. I would consider that knowingly endangering her own unborn child. (If the kid really is hers)

But her daughter being pregnant doesn't mean jackshit. The only valid argument coming out of it is how it undermines her stance on abstinance education. If you don't mention that point then the daughter's pregnancy has no importance.

Look, I don't give a shit about Bristol one way or the other. I really, REALLY don't. I don't care a lick if she is pregnant. What I care about is the utter circus that is being created - What you have to realize is that it isn't just me or some leftist bloggers talking about this, the national media has picked up on all of this and they are gonna talk about it no matter how many times you or Obama or anybody else screams at them to stop. Drama Sells.

You don't have to like it, I don't have to like it.....but the scandalous gossipy quality about it means people are gonna snatch that shit up just like when respectable news organizations bypass real news to cover Britney Spears or Paris Hilton or whatever train wreck of the moment they are focusing on.

I am sorry that the media is making an issue of this stuff (Trust me, I don't think ANY of the baby talk helps Obama at all - I have said that before in this very thread), but it IS a story whether anyone wants it to be or not. It IS in the mainstream media and it IS being covered. That means the general non-blogging public are being exposed to all of this and that it IS a valid topic for discussion.

What you have to understand is that millions upon millions of voters are being exposed to Sarah Palin for the first time right now. RIGHT NOW is when people are forming their impressions of her...You know how you always hear political analyst talking about moments in a campaign where a candidate has an opportunity to 'frame' an issue or 'frame' their opponent? She is being framed right now by the national media (The Obama campaign is mostly staying the hell away from it and the McCain campaign isn't getting their message out successfully between the hurricanes, the convention talk and the investigative reporting/commentary on an otherwise nationally-unknown Alaskan Governor.)

In a perfect world, the personal stuff shouldn't matter. But you know as well as I do that the Presidential ticket is unlike most other political offices in our country in that people vote for the *person* for president. That is why what peoples thoughts about personal behavior is important. That stuff matters.

[Lalala]

Originally Posted by Khorum

How much HOPE and fucking CHANGE have your New-Deal socialists visitted to the poor of this country?

How much HOPE have you inflicted on the poor when after four decades of Welfare your New Deal socialism has so thoroughly provided free fish to them that they no longer have ANY FUCKING DESIRE to learn how to fish for themselves.

How much HOPE have you instilled to the same poor folks who have watched every penniless immigrant community come to this country with even less resources than they do work, strive and come out as the affluent members of American society like the Italians, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Filipinos, the Polish, the Serbs, the Mexicans, the Armenians and the Vietnamese while they themselves watch history leave them behind.

How much CHANGE has New Deal socialism brought to the HOUSING situation of America's poor when what it has actually done is CONCENTRATE the poor "trouble populations" into soviet-style housing CAMPS where police and government control can be focused on their every move?

How much HOPE have you seen in the social security system that is DOOMED TO FAIL in less than a decade? How much CHANGE has Barack Obama enumerated for that system? Or for education? Or for taxes?

Oh wait, he hasn't proposed ANY changes to Medicare or Social Security other than to fight the only genuine chances of meaningful transformation in either body: PRIVATIZATION.

There's a difference in the Changes that McCain embodied in his career championing MORE GENUINE HEALTHCARE REFORM than Clinton and Obama combined. There's a difference in the Hope that Palin engendered when she marched against her own party to sweep away the vicious partnership between government and big oil.

There's a difference between HOPE and WISHFUL THINKING, and that difference is called ACTION.

wow, just wow, and you still insist you are not extreme? at least, stop lying about that.

[Araxen]

This woman scares me...Huckabee didn't scare me but this lady does.

Three months before she was thrust into the national political spotlight, Gov. Sarah Palin was asked to handle a much smaller task: addressing the graduating class of commission students at her one-time church, Wasilla Assembly of God.

"Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Religion, however, was not strictly a thread in Palin's foreign policy. It was part of her energy proposals as well. Just prior to discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she wanted built in the state. "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.

Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by Etoille

really? kegkilla? the rest of them who talk about girls turning 18 with glee like the rest of you penises over on the screenshots forum? or cheering someone on who fucks on camera like a circus animal for a bunch of internet nerds? really? the moral fibre of this board couldnt handle THIS instance of debauchery it was just too much to bear? the whole "CHECK OUT PALINS DAUGHTER SHE'S HAWT" thing that a bunch of them launched on the day of the announcement was fine but then talking about her pregnancy isnt? man fuck you.

Astrocreep, seriously (and youll note I rarely say this here), shut the fuck up. You. Fucking. Hypocritical. Moron.

I'll bet you're so fat.

[Araxen]

Originally Posted by Lalala

wow, just wow, and you still insist you are not extreme? at least, stop lying about that.

Khorum is what Bill O'Reilly calls a "right wing loon". He doesn't use the term as often as "left wing loon"(IRB), but he does use it when the planets align.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Leto Eu`Acumen

Look, I don't give a shit about Bristol one way or the other. I really, REALLY don't. I don't care a lick if she is pregnant. What I care about is the utter circus that is being created - What you have to realize is that it isn't just me or some leftist bloggers talking about this, the national media has picked up on all of this and they are gonna talk about it no matter how many times you or Obama or anybody else screams at them to stop. Drama Sells.

So you admit it's become an issue with the national media, because it's a scandal and nothing more.

Than why do you feel the need to mention among all your valid points. Everything else you posted I agreed with, but adding in the mention of her daughter being pregnant takes away from the rest. If you really think its a valid enough argument to be mentioned then I question the rest of your opinions as well.

Stating that you know its nothing more than sensationalism is the national media should be the exact reason why it doesn't need to be mentioned among a bunch of actual valid points. Don't drop to their level.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by brekk

Don't drop to their level.

Thank you, John Kerry.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Sunder

Thank you, John Kerry.

Im talking about the national media circus. Not the Republicans or the Democrats you dumb shit.

Edit: and it has nothing to do with privacy of the family or some bullshit like that. She's getting involved in national politics shit is going to get dug up. That's fine. But her daughter getting pregnant doesn't show she's a poor parent or leader. It does show the stupidity in her stance on abstinance education.

[Gecko]

Originally Posted by Adam Jones

In fact, my only hope for Obama is that his radical-left agenda issues are nothing more than pandering. And why couldn't they be? He's already shown that he pandered on the platform of change, on the issue of troop drawdowns in Iraq. Why not these other radical ideas?

All we have are his words and his voting record. His votes are in line with the far left progressives.

I hope if he is elected he'll tack moderate, but he's even claimed he is a progressive and honestly admits he will run the country that way. Obama has never taken on his party for anything. I doubt he'd start now.

I'll take him at his word, which pretty much means his hope and change is really just moving the country where the DNC wants it to go. Some want that, I personally don't. We're already buried in entitlement spending. I certainly do not want more.

Elections are always about the lesser of two evils. I've weighed (am weighing, I suppose) the candidates' Cabinets versus their public agendas, have accounted for the possibility that said agenda in respect to Obama is simply pandering, and feel that the risk vs. reward favors the Democrat at this point in time. I don't feel great about him, but, right now, I feel a helluva lot better about him than I do the McCain/Palin ticket.

I agree with the lesser of two evils quote. It's part of the problem with a two party system that allows real choices.

With the huge DNC majority in congress and the massive new spending that will definitely be implemented by Obama if elected with his compatriots in the House and Senate, my views are completely different.

Mccain is the lesser of two evils for my wallet, and I'd much rather the Congress and the President be fighting and working to implement bipartisan agreements, versus rubber stamping large pieces of legislation and pork.