McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Tuco

I must be in the minority in thinking that both Obama and McCain are good candidates /shrug

At the start of the election I thought great, no matter what well be much better off. But I was still thinking of McCain as McCain 2000.

If McCain does win then perhaps he will revert to his old self but thats not a silver lining im hoping to have to look for. And of course some dark clouds are just dark clouds.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Originally Posted by AladainAF

What voters think about the debates has been proven many times in history to not matter.

In fact, often times debate winners (via voter reactions) take dips in the polls afterward.

This is simply not true. It is so fucking untrue that I feel dumber for even responding to it.

Hello!

Nixon/Kennedy. Reagan/Carter/Mondale. GHW Bush glancing at his watch in '92.

Ford in '76 "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe."

Dukakis in '88 with the death penalty question.

Its obvious why you are a Republican, you are totally insulated from any facts and just make shit up to fit what you want to believe. Are you Donald Rumsfeld IRL?

[Vandyn]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

This is simply not true. It is so fucking untrue that I feel dumber for even responding to it.

Hello!

Nixon/Kennedy. Reagan/Carter/Mondale. GHW Bush glancing at his watch in '92.

Ford in '76 "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe."

Dukakis in '88 with the death penalty question.

Its obvious why you are a Republican, you are totally insulated from any facts and just make shit up to fit what you want to believe. Are you Donald Rumsfeld IRL?

It goes the other way too. Kerry 04 won all the debates and look how good that turned out for him.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Vandyn

It goes the other way too. Kerry 04 won all the debates and look how good that turned out for him.

Yeah but he wasnt saying you could win the debates and then lose the election. Everyone knows that.

He said that often after winning a debate, as decided by the voter reaction, not pundits, the winner has a corresponding drop in the polls.

[Heavens_Myst]

There is a difference between losing a debate on points and losing by saying or doing something that looks incredibly bad on looped TV commercials. Nothing of that sort happened last night so I have to agree that this will have no real effect on the next few weeks.

[AladainAF]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

This is simply not true. It is so fucking untrue that I feel dumber for even responding to it.

Reviewing the presidential debates since 1960 - CNN.com

I didn't say EVERY time, I just said often times. Unless, of course, the candidate totally and completely fumbled the debate (like the examples you mentioned!).

I don't think either McCain or Obama "fumbled" the debate. (edit) and therefore I agree that the polls will probably show little if any difference.

[Ironhawk]

Still undecided.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

There is a difference between losing a debate on points and losing by saying or doing something that looks incredibly bad on looped TV commercials. Nothing of that sort happened last night so I have to agree that this will have no real effect on the next few weeks.

Doesn't have to be a big stumble, just a perception that becomes a meme. McCain as an asshole that won't look at Obama is just as damaging as Gore's aggressiveness and "lockbox" was in 2000, remember the whole get up in Bush's face during the second debate? Same thing.

As for Kerry, he lost the election yes, but the first Bush/Kerry debate where Kerry really made Bush look like an idiot was worth almost 6 points in the polls (Bush was ahead by about 8 at the time).

Politics is perception, "stupid" shit like posture and talking to the camera matters, not if you really zinged someone on Pakistan.

[AladainAF]

As for Kerry, he lost the election yes, but the first Bush/Kerry debate where Kerry really made Bush look like an idiot was worth almost 6 points in the polls (Bush was ahead by about 8 at the time).

At least according to CNN, Kerry performance actually boosted him 8 points.

Then, in the 3rd debate, Kerry won by the same margin (52-39), and Bush gained 4 points and Kerry dropped 5.

[Araxen]

Even my sister is clueless about this shit noticed McCain wasn't looking at him at all. She thought he was terrible at debating because of it.

[Araxen]

Daily Kos: Obama Humiliated McCain in White House Bailout Meeting

The Washington Post has a detailed and major story describing much more detail about Thursday's show meeting convened by Bush and McCain in order for John McCain to "save the economy." It turns out that Obama spoke for the Democrats in the room officially, and confronted John McCain in front of everyone present, coming out the winner. Quotes after the jump.

Boehner was blunt. The plan Paulson laid out would not win the support of the vast majority of House Republicans. It had been improved on the edges, with an oversight board and caps on the compensation of participating executives. But it had to be changed at the core. He did not mention the insurance alternative, but Democrats did. Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, pressed Boehner hard, asking him if he really intended to scrap the deal and start again.

No, Boehner replied, he just wanted his members to have a voice. Obama then jumped in to turn the question on his rival: "What do you think of the plan, John?" he asked repeatedly. McCain did not answer.

One Republican in the room said it was clear that the Democrats came into the meeting with a "game plan" aimed at forcing McCain to choose between the administration and House Republicans. "They had taken McCain's request for a meeting and trumped it," said this source.

Congressional aides from both parties were standing in the lobby of the West Wing, unaware of the discord inside the Cabinet room, when McCain emerged alone, shook the hands of the Marines at the door and left. The aides were baffled. The plan had been for a bipartisan appearance before the media, featuring McCain, Obama and at least a firm statement in favor of intervention. Now, one of the leading men was gone.

Perhaps this will satisfy some of the people who believe that Obama did not "hit McCain hard enough." He confronted McCain directly, and McCain more than blinked, he stomped out of the self-convened high stakes meeting Bob Novak style. The vaunted "House GOP Plan" was a fig leaf that McCain tried to use as a means of delaying the negotiated plan so he could avoid the debate the next day, but the plan did not work

Talking Points Memo

Jonathan Weisman has a fascinating, even riveting narrative of what went down in Washington on Thursday as John McCain made his play to commandeer the high-level negotiations over the bailout bill. And TPM Reader TW called my attention to a passage that may help to explain the smoldering hostility that made it impossible for McCain even to make eye contact with Barack Obama during last night's debate.

We pick up Weisman in that big meeting at the White House ...

Pelosi said Obama would speak for the Democrats. Though later he would pepper Paulson with questions, according to a Republican in the room, his initial point was brief: "We've got to get something done."

(snip)
Assuming this is an accurate portrayal of events, it may help explain some of what happened last night.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by Tuco

I must be in the minority in thinking that both Obama and McCain are good candidates /shrug

Palin is terrible though.

I think both candidates are acceptable, I wouldn't say I think they are equal, I favor Obama's policies, but I don't think the sky will fall if McCain is elected either mostly because he wouldn't be able to get any of his stuff done. I don't think he is bad, just his ideas.

I do think that Palin is just unacceptable. There is nothing McCain could say after he chose her, other than "Palin will be stepping down as my running mate", that would get me to vote for him.

[Malakriss]

I hope those stories get mainstream coverage, even if it's only the Democrat favored networks. +Obama and ------McCain

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by chaos

I think both candidates are acceptable, I wouldn't say I think they are equal, I favor Obama's policies, but I don't think the sky will fall if McCain is elected either mostly because he wouldn't be able to get any of his stuff done. I don't think he is bad, just his ideas.

I do think that Palin is just unacceptable. There is nothing McCain could say after he chose her, other than "Palin will be stepping down as my running mate", that would get me to vote for him.

Agree. I would feel comfortable with McCain as President as well as Obama however Palin is just ridiculous. She makes absolutely no sense. I can not believe that Republicans are not speaking out against this insanity. She is such an insane pick that it really makes me question McCain's sanity.



Will someone please put Sarah Palin out of her agony?
GOP concerns about Palin grow

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by AladainAF

At least according to CNN, Kerry performance actually boosted him 8 points.

Then, in the 3rd debate, Kerry won by the same margin (52-39), and Bush gained 4 points and Kerry dropped 5.

Bullshit. Kerry was a piece of shit. I bet he did not even vote for himself. Plus get your facts straight. At this point in the election Bush was slightly ahead and never lost ground. I am tired of hearing about how much out front Kerry was. Kerry was not leading in the polls at this point. Obama is following Bush's polling for 2004 not Kerry's polling.

White House 2004