McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[gn0me]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

I really am loathe to use sports analogies, but....

You used up your trick play, and had some momentum. But there is too much time on the clock and the core problems of your team are still there.

You cant sustain negative campaigning without it backfiring. Period. Its good for short quick bursts, but over a long period of time, it starts to define the purveyor. (Especially when over and over again he is being called straight up a liar, often to his face, on national television, by multiple people.)

Bush ran a fucking awesome, textbook campaign in 2000. It was perfect. They looked at the map, and surgically dissected it. They didn't have to really go that negative against Gore, because he allowed the Clinton negatives to become him, while drawing none of their benefit. Bush didnt really go negative in 2000, and people were voting FOR him.

2004 was different. An incumbent president barely fights off a VERY flawed candidate. Bush went very negative, BUT, they were always able to make it seem like it wasnt coming from them. They knew, they understood, that you cannot get your hands dirty in this stuff.

McCain? No, think MACBETH, scrubbing to remove the stain of blood from guilty hands. Out, out damned spot!

What McCain is doing now is UNSUSTAINABLE. It was designed to give a quick, massive boost and get Obama playing catch up for 45 days.

It failed. Obama has more money, a better grassroots, a stronger brand (republican brand is dog shit atm), and massive advantages on the issues.

What does McCain have? trick plays and big gambles.

Good luck.

Gonna have to agree with that. McCain had a strong post convention bounce due to the Palin pick. They tried to extend the bounce as long as possible by going negative and throwing Obama on the defensive. It worked for a while, but the problem is it has now backfired. They pushed too hard and continually stuck to repeating discredited statements, flat out lies, and distractions (lipstick controversy), which seriously damaged their reformer image.

All week long McCain/Palin have been getting swatted by national media sources left and right for lying and distorting. McCain even got his ass owned on The View of all fucking places, and Palin's ABC interview really exposed a lot of her flaws as a candidate. Charlie Gibson really didn't let her get off scott free by waving away her previous controversial stances on global warming, bridge to nowhere, earmarks, etc. The convention excitement is wearing off and reality is starting to set in, as evidenced by the leveling off of the polls.

At least the 2004 Bush campaign had the good sense to let the super negative Swift Boat shit come from a 527 group that Bush could claim he had "no control" over. That was the perfect setup, and was quite brilliant. A draft dodger essentially painted a decorated Vietnam war hero as unpatriotic, perhaps treasonous, and Bush could claim all along he had nothing to do with it.

McCain/Palin on the other hand are completely stuck to the lies/hypocrisy/discredited statements that they have been pushing so hard since the convention. They made the mistake of spouting this crap themselves, versus letting the lackeys and shadow groups throw it out, and the stink has started to stick.

This gives the Obama campaign the perfect angle to legitimately go on the offensive (beginning yesterday) for at least a couple weeks or until the debates. Obama can now continue to push his issues image while simultaneously running attack ads on McCain/Palin's widely discredited statements, dishonorable tactics, and fake reformer image. Obama comes out of this looking better and he's now in position to turn the tables on McCain. Obama got an assist by the media this week for sure, but equally important was the fact McCain/Palin pushed too hard too fast, blowing their wad prematurely.

[gn0me]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

Phil Gramm is a whiner.

If I were McCain I wouldn't let that guy say a goddamn thing publicly from here until the election. Gramm's "mental recession" comment still sticks with a lot of people and he even managed to get himself in the news last week when he asked Ron Paul for an endorsement of McCain and Paul told him to kindly fuck off. Phil Gramm is toxic waste at this point lol.

[Lleauaric~EW]

This gives the Obama campaign the perfect angle to legitimately go on the offensive (beginning yesterday) for at least a couple weeks or until the debates. Obama can now continue to push his issues image while simultaneously running attack ads on McCain/Palin's widely discredited statements, dishonorable tactics, and fake reformer image. Obama comes out of this looking better and he's now in position to turn the tables on McCain. Obama got an assist by the media this week for sure, but equally important was the fact McCain/Palin pushed too hard too fast, blowing their wad prematurely.

Boom!

Obama's turn.

Sensing, perhaps, a turn in the media against McCain's stunts, Obama spokesman Bill Burton puts out a scorching statement:

“We will take no lectures from John McCain who is cynically running the sleaziest and least honorable campaign in modern Presidential campaign history. His discredited ads with disgusting lies are running all over the country today. He runs a campaign not worthy of the office he is seeking,” said Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton.

THAT is how to counterpunch hard, effectively.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Mr. Gramm is also McCain's economic advisor (a nation of "whiners"). The one that got schooled by Goolsbee ("Well, taxes aren't everything!")

His argument seems to be that 3 states did something wrong, and 3 states did something right and that somehow, Obama's plan is the same as Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois's. He fails to mention that Florida, Texas, and Arizona are states without personal income taxes. Only 6 other states forego taxing the income of their residents; the rest are taxed.

I'm going to need a little more hard data and less coincidentalism to convince me that Gramm actually knows what he's talking about.

Nevermind that the problems of Michigan and Ohio are not linked to taxation, but of the sluggish adaptation of companies and industry to retool their businesses in favor of other trades. Ohio's problems run a lot deeper than a coincidentally higher tax rate--simply lifting the personal income tax here won't change things. We are the "Rust Belt" for a reason--the old and decayed remains of industry long removed.

Until there is a way to get competent workers in Ohio skilled labor involving manufacturing or a way to quickly and economically train these people for other jobs (no excuses, we have more Universities and Colleges than any other state), Ohio will continue to be a mess.

Besides, Phil Gramm is just recycling talking points with data that looks close enough to fit, but isn't. He's another brilliant illustration of the McCain mentality--problems aren't one thing or another, they are a whole host and multitude of interlocking problems that you cannot simply look at things ceteris paribus because they are NOT equal.

[Astrocreep]

Obama is hardly one to make comments about sleazy tactics when his own party is attacking SP's 17yr old daughter's pregnancy for political fodder.

[Mimirswell]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

Obama is hardly one to make comments about sleazy tactics when his own party is attacking SP's 17yr old daughter's pregnancy for political fodder.

There is a difference between Democrats and the Obama Campaign just as there is a difference between Republicans and the McCain Campaign. Here, it's John McCain approved commercials doing the negative attacks. Obama explicitly stated that families are taboo and that he repudiated any attacks that went to Palin's family. Now a cynic might suggest that Obama simply had his surrogates in the Democratic party do the attacks for him but in all honesty, the 527s and various fringe elements of both parties enjoy this stuff and they take their own initiative and oft times ignore the candidates wishes (even when they are sincere).

[Gilgamel]

I don't care about Gramm's talking points, I'm just pointing out what that 1% of the rich he always talks about is composed of. A lot of people seem to think if we just taxed the rich and ignored everyone else things would be great, but that's not how it works.

[Arbitrary]

If you make your values and your family a issue, if you cite them as experience or qualifications or reasons someone should vote for you, you open yourself up to criticisms on that front.

[Lleauaric~EW]

So we can tie McCain to every thing any person calling themselves a Republican says?

Cool.

Stop trying to rationalize what you KNOW is wrong.

[gn0me]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

Obama is hardly one to make comments about sleazy tactics when his own party is attacking SP's 17yr old daughter's pregnancy for political fodder.

Trolls on message boards and bloggers are making those statements. They aren't connected with his campaign and Obama early on publicly denounced such statements. Obama is not hypocritical for going after lies and distortions endorsed by McCain/Palin. There is a huge difference.

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

If you make your values and your family a issue, if you cite them as experience or qualifications or reasons someone should vote for you, you open yourself up to criticisms on that front.

Exactly.

[Erumaron]

Some gems from that Palin interview the other night.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

Boom!

Obama's turn.



THAT is how to counterpunch hard, effectively.

How nice to have most of the media solidly behind one's campaign. We all know that it is Obama who is running the sleaziest campaign ever.

[Hal2005]

Rather then shy away from her family skeletons Palin elected to explain and stand behind her family. Obama can't even admit what he did in undergrad, let alone accept responsibility for his peers at the time.

Democrats are supporting a hail mary candidate who should have taken the polls in a Slick Willy 2.0. As a politican he's stupidly underqualified (almost at a Bush level) and can barely talk his way out of a American policy debate, let alone understand US federal-monetary precedent.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Two bad troll posts in a row, I'm going for the trifecta.

Originally Posted by Tad10

Stuff

Stick to Vanguard threads. Please.

Originally Posted by Hal2005

More stuff

War hero. POW. Family values. PATRIOT.