McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

Wow.

This is neither the time nor the thread, but you seem to be missing about 50 years of exported American Imperialism (EMPIRALISM KHORUM ROFL).

HAHA what you actually said was "empiricalism", and it's as funny now as it was then.

As far as Palin goes though, it's best to frame the situation with a look from within the Obama campaign's meetings:

[Smocca]

The self-proclaimed energy experts show off their ignorance on the issue (or more likely their willingness to blatantly lie about it).

FactCheck.org: Energetically Wrong

McCain: "Well, I think Americans are going to be very, very, very pleased. This is a very dynamic person. [Palin's] been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply."

Palin: "Let me speak specifically about a credential that I do bring to this table, Charlie, and that's with the energy independence that I've been working on for these years as the governor of this state that produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy, that I worked on as chairman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, overseeing the oil and gas development in our state to produce more for the United States. "

20 percent? Try 2.4 percent you fucking assholes.

Drill baby drill.

Que the apologists.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

I know what he means. As I have said before, I am a very strong fiscal conservative and disagree with both Obama and McCain when it comes to their outlooks on the economy. I just want to hear him say what it is exactly about Sarah Palin that makes the Republican party "energized".

She's a corrupt fundamentalist Christian who likes shooting things and talking big about how America needs to bitchslap Iran/Russia/etc. Of course Republicans like her.

[Neferata]

How did the party for people who want "small" government also become the party for people who want to go galavanting around the planet to force democracy on others?

It seems like there are quite a few people out there who claim to be fiscally conservative and claim to support small government, yet many of these people are happy to justify all of the meddling we do in the affairs of other countries. They hate the government intruding on their own lives, but happily support our government intruding on the lives of others. I guess I don't understand how a true republican can support the Iraq war, or how they can be even remotely interested in sparking a war with Iran.

Honestly I think you would have a hard time finding someone that actually wants the government to be larger and more intrusive than it is right now(other than, you know, politicians...) Perhaps liberals want the government to be slightly larger than the conservatives want it to be, but everybody wants smaller government in the grand scheme of things. Nobody wants the government to raise their taxes, tell them what they can or cannot do to their own body, decide whether or not they can marry the person they love, take away their right to own a gun, etc. Nobody in this country wants a larger, more intrusive government. I'd just like to know how the party that gave us the Iraq war and the Patriot Act can continue to lay claim to these smaller government philosophies.

I can fully understand why many of you conservatives cannot vote for Obama. What I cannot understand is, if you truly support these "conservative" ideals, how on earth can you justify voting for McCain instead? My guess would be you're willing to sacrifice smaller government in exchange for things that are more important to you. That's cool, so am I. Lets just cut the bullshit though, and stop calling the republican party the party of smaller government when that is obviously not the case.

On another note, I'd really be interested in reading posts that detail why each one of us is supporting X candidate, issue by issue. "I'm supporting McCain because under his plan a) my taxes will be lower, b)..." etc. Something a little more substantial than "Liberals are pussies LOL!" or "Conservatives are dumb rednecks ROFL!"

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Neferata

On another note, I'd really be interested in reading posts that detail why each one of us is supporting X candidate, issue by issue. "I'm supporting McCain because under his plan a) my taxes will be lower, b)..." etc. Something a little more substantial than "Liberals are pussies LOL!" or "Conservatives are dumb rednecks ROFL!"

This thread is already a massive cluster fuck why would you want to make it worse? Would be impossible for anyone to give a detailed post on why they are voting the way they are without 10 people from the other side nerdraging the fuck out of them 15 seconds later. This is a political thread... honest discussion went out the window on page 1. Just let the dems/reps continue to throw shit at each other all day long. It is amusing when work is slow.

[Zulutu]

Originally Posted by Neferata

How did the party for people who want "small" government also become the party for people who want to go galavanting around the planet to force democracy on others?

It seems like there are quite a few people out there who claim to be fiscally conservative and claim to support small government, yet many of these people are happy to justify all of the meddling we do in the affairs of other countries. They hate the government intruding on their own lives, but happily support our government intruding on the lives of others. I guess I don't understand how a true republican can support the Iraq war, or how they can be even remotely interested in sparking a war with Iran.

Honestly I think you would have a hard time finding someone that actually wants the government to be larger and more intrusive than it is right now(other than, you know, politicians...) Perhaps liberals want the government to be slightly larger than the conservatives want it to be, but everybody wants smaller government in the grand scheme of things. Nobody wants the government to raise their taxes, tell them what they can or cannot do to their own body, decide whether or not they can marry the person they love, take away their right to own a gun, etc. Nobody in this country wants a larger, more intrusive government. I'd just like to know how the party that gave us the Iraq war and the Patriot Act can continue to lay claim to these smaller government philosophies.

I can fully understand why many of you conservatives cannot vote for Obama. What I cannot understand is, if you truly support these "conservative" ideals, how on earth can you justify voting for McCain instead? My guess would be you're willing to sacrifice smaller government in exchange for things that are more important to you. That's cool, so am I. Lets just cut the bullshit though, and stop calling the republican party the party of smaller government when that is obviously not the case.

On another note, I'd really be interested in reading posts that detail why each one of us is supporting X candidate, issue by issue. "I'm supporting McCain because under his plan a) my taxes will be lower, b)..." etc. Something a little more substantial than "Liberals are pussies LOL!" or "Conservatives are dumb rednecks ROFL!"

Some of the republicans I personally know are dissatisfied enough with the McCain / Palin campaign, but don't like (or in one case, absolutely hate) Obama, and have decided to simply not vote this election.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by Zulutu

Some of the republicans I personally know are dissatisfied enough with the McCain / Palin campaign, but don't like (or in one case, absolutely hate) Obama, and have decided to simply not vote this election.

This is part of the problem, we only realisticly have two choices. For many of us the question isn't "Who will be the best president" it is "which of these two will suck less as president".

[Astrocreep]

i hate both McLame and Obama. hate Biden love Palin. there is a reasonable chance that McLame will die in office so i want Sarh for Prez. if she wasnt on the ticket i wouldnt be voting this time around.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by Neferata

On another note, I'd really be interested in reading posts that detail why each one of us is supporting X candidate, issue by issue. "I'm supporting McCain because under his plan a) my taxes will be lower, b)..." etc. Something a little more substantial than "Liberals are pussies LOL!" or "Conservatives are dumb rednecks ROFL!"

I'm voting for Obama, because I don't want war with Iran and McCain seems set on it, hell the entire right wing of our country doesn't seem like they will be happy until we have defeated Islam as a whole, except Saudi Arabia because they are our "allies". I could have dealt with that, McCain isn't so bad, then he went and picked the most fundamentalist VP he could find. And he is a 72 year old, 4 time cancer surviving, former POW. Who is running for the most stressful job on Earth. Yeah.

There are other issues, for instance McCain's health care plan is LUNACY. If the media didn't have Palin to distract them, I'd like to think they would be ripping that stinker to shreds, my god it's just one of the worst policies I have ever heard of. McCain promises smaller government, but he is a Republican, who are known for exorbinant spending and government programs. But my main issue with McCain comes down to the fact that I do not think we are engaged in a holy war with Islam, and people who do think that should not be in power.

For Obama, I think he pussied out on FISA and the Iraq war, and I think that is a shame, especially with FISA he had a real chance to differentiate himself from McCain and stand up for civil rights and he failed. I think his health care plan leaves some to be desired, but it's better than McCain's and would lead to more coverage, which is a good thing and one step closer to universal coverage for all. He is the only politician I hear still calling out people saying that the surge worked (temporary violence reduction was not the goal of the surge, jesus christ) and advocating a real timeline for getting out. And that's happening now. Of course when the militia disbands after we pull out and the whole mess falls apart, whoever is in office will be blamed, but that's besides the point. Obama is also seen more likable overseas, and I think trying to reestablish some lost relationships is important, foreign policy needs to make a dramatic shift in this country and I don't think McCain is the person to do that.

It comes down to, there are no perfect candidates, but out of these 2 it was actually pretty close for me, until McCain picked Palin as VP. I doubt anyone will even read all this shit, but I think for most people it comes down to a handful of issues. I only listed the ones off the top of my head here, there are more, but that's basically it, Iran conflict + Palin = I vote for Obama.

[Vandyn]

The Palin pick is going to make me go for Obama, but man it is not a confident vote for him. I just cannot vote for another republican in the white house after 8 years of what this country has went through.

There are issues that I have with Obama and will continue to have with Obama right up till election day but in my mind it's either vote for him and take your chances or don't vote.

[Zora]

Originally Posted by chaos

There's conservative, and then there's "conservative". Shit, I consider myself a conservative. Social conservatism has been the death of true conservatism, they hijacked the party long ago. That's what he means when he says "conservative".

Sounds like this post from DailyKos might fit you and some other conservatives who support Obama. I know many of you despise that "bastard child of the liberal media," as I once heard someone refer to it. I don't go to DailyKos often myself, but a link to this post was e-mailed to me and I think it's expressed well.

We Are Out Here- Updated
by ex VRWC
Wed Sep 10, 2008 at 05:15:44 PM PDT

We are out here - the Republicans or ex-Republicans who will no longer tolerate the racist, despicable slime machine that the right wing and the John McCain-Sarah Palin campaign has become. I know, for I am one of them. I am not your typical progressive, being an ex- Air Force officer (9 years), evangelical Christian, card carrying conservative, Rush/Hannity listener - an now an Obama supporter in John McCain's home state of Arizona.

And I know I am not alone - for one, my grown sons are with me. My older, now in college, proudly rides around with Obama stickers on his scooter. He, also, was raised an evangelical Christian, and goodness knows I subjected him to a conservative worldview.

So what gives? Why are we out here - the Rebublican Obama supporters, the ones you don't expect. More on my story below:

* ex VRWC's diary :: ::
*

ROTC Cadet, Air Force Captain, Free Republic diarist, James Dobson quoting conservative, 2 time Bush voter. Church worship leader. These all describe me. And there are more just like me. My evolution to progressive awareness has been a slow one, but is has never gone faster than in the last 3 or 4 months. How do I describe myself now - a progressive conservative, of course (if there is such a thing)!

So why am I and those like me out here? I am out here because I see through the hysteria that the right wing has become. I know the abandonment of principles when we see it. I despise in today's Republican Party what I was always told were the worst traits of the 'left' in years past. I know better these days. I have come to the realization that in many ways I left my brain turned off for far too long. I listened to those I was supposed to agree with, and never tried to be, as Rush Limbaugh says, a 'truth seeker'. Well I am a truth seeker now, I find truth much more often when I listen to Rachel Maddow that I ever did on Rush. I am able to see (on the right) political opportunism, shameless lying, rampant political positioning, and a party leadership that has forfieted all claim to trust.

Nothing has shamed me more than the evangelical groupthink around the Sarah Palin pick. People I used to respect for their strong stand on the family and values have completely abandoned their principles to back someone whom they think offers a slim grasp at victory. I will not participate in it, nor will my church, for which I am thankful. Trust me, the groupthink on the right is not as rampant as you may think. There are those of us that recognize that our so-called conservative and Christian leaders in this country are almost universally bankrupt, and we are outraged and ashamed.

The sins of the right in this campaign and of the last 8 years do not go unnoticed. The racism, the shameless lying, the demeaning, the assumption that the 'base' is composed of idiots - I see through these things. I see through the rabid assertions that question patriotism or imply sympathy with terrorism. I see through the thin veneer of declaring 'victory' in Iraq. I see the right wing totally ignoring the very real issues we face - the housing crisis, the mortgage meltdown, the looming bank bailout, the sellout of the economy in the name of 'globalization'. I saw the disregard for fellow humans that was Katrina and its aftermath, even to this day. I see the eroded stature of our nation that 8 years of 'maverick' foriegn policy has wrought. We are not stupid.

What do I see in Barack Obama? I see an intelligent, thoughtful, unflappable leader. I see a patriot who is rising up and putting himself forth for leadership of this great nation in its hour of need. Goodness knows, I would not want the job. I see a man who will perform the duties of the President of the United States with sober and thoughtful judgement. I see a man with the breadth and depth who can address many of these problems we face as a nation. I see a man who wants to bring us together. I don't pretend it will be easy, it will not be. There are big problems to be solved. We will need to come together, those of us on each side of the political spectrum. First to get Barack Obama elected, then to work to make America a better place. I will do my part to convince those I know that a vote for McCain will be a disaster.

So, progressives on the left, know that there are those of us on the right that have been listening and paying attention. We have heard what Barack Obama is saying. We look forward to working together with you to make this nation a better place. Godspeed in the next 2 months.

Daily Kos: We Are Out Here- Updated

[seraa]

I am a swing voter. I vote mostly conservative in my home state (Washington State is a great example of corrupt liberalism) but this year on the Federal Level, due to the Bush administration, I will be voting for Obama this election.

With McCain being a 72 year old with multiple bouts of cancer, it is way too likely that Palin will be president this term. I was not crazy about Obama but McCain's moronic choice of clearly allowing Karl Rove to pick his vice president shows that McCain has lost his soul. He has shown he wants to be president so bad that he's willing to say and do anything to win power, blaming the tone of the election on Obama for not meeting in town meetings with him. Overall, I have not seen such blatant lying in a campaign since the Clintons, and he's already taken it to a level that even the Clintons would never go to.

We (both liberal and conservative voters) cannot cannot let Mommy Mooseburger the Theocrat get anywhere near the White House, because I promise you, you will learn what it is like to live under Totalitarian Rule in Russia real quick. Those of you who are conservative who like Palin are blinded by judgement and complete ignorance and you will all make us pay for it. She is not conservative in the slightest. Wake the fuck up and start educating yourself.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

i hate both McLame and Obama. hate Biden love Palin. there is a reasonable chance that McLame will die in office so i want Sarh for Prez. if she wasnt on the ticket i wouldnt be voting this time round.

Why do you think Palin is a good pick?

[Citten]

Republicans: Prevent babies life from being killed, but send our troops into the battlefield for a lost cause. Troops, 80% of which are their own kind, republican army boys (18-22 year olds), which will in return vote republican: this is despite being against the war themselves.

Republicans are so interested in weighing down the prosperous side of the world it's really quite amazing to be apart of this odd time period of ignorance - while your kind is still around, enjoy your political freedom, the country inevitably moves more liberal every waking day.

Minorities become more prevalent, whites as the majority is gone (this happens within years). Your grandfathers and grandmothers graves are dug as generations of church brainwashing is less in the norm, while your children get desensitized with mass media - mtv, all overly liberal outlets. Church becomes less common, already happening in severe numbers, everyone knows these factors, I could go on.

You can win only for so long until your old age ends you. Your generation is fading, the good ol boys are passing. Have this election, have the next, soon you will be a small cult group, looked strangely upon, of no threat.

[Tristinn]

Originally Posted by Melchizedek

LOL You are right, conservatives hate sex. I am not going to comment on that entire list, but we do not exhibit anywhere the hate and vitriol that the left does. Look at this board, when Tony Snow died many posters in this thread were gleeful.

So you are saying that the Conservative hatred that fueled the murder of more than half-a-million innocent people... doesn't come close to what the "left" does?