McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[JerleMinara]

Originally Posted by Fammaden

But the point stands that neither of them seemed very up to date on the definitions of this doctrine.

Correct.

[Gilgamel]

Originally Posted by Fammaden

So assuming for the sake of argument that the administration's goals in military action were to do all these things. You are ok with the administration having a goal of their own, but only finding the ability to proceed with that goal based on a will of the American people that was initiated by a far different goal? You think that everyone in this country on 9/10/01 would have found "spreading democracy" a valid reason to send our own people halfway across the world to potentially die? All the good intentions in the universe don't change what that is, and in my world that is simply called a lie.

I was absolutely wrong, and I will freely admit it.

I believed Saddam had WMD and a weapons program. Not a nuclear program, not to attack us, but perhaps to give nasty toys to someone to attack Israel.

I believed the war in Iraq would be much easier than it has been. I was 9 at the time of Desert Storm, and everything I heard led me to believe this would be a 3 day war with a few years of mop up and we'd move on, which fit well with my memories.

I heard a man speak that the answer to terrorism was a fundamental change in Islamic culture. We had to give young disaffected Muslims something other than anger towards us(we are blamed for almost everything in the Middle East, even the recent Iranian earthquake was rumored to be a CIA megabomb in Iran). I heard some eloquent people say the best way to do this was to liberate a dictatorship in the heart of the Middle East, allow the people there to share in the spoils of its land, and make an example to the rest of the Muslim world that peace and prosperity through self enterprise would allow them to raise themselves up out of poverty across the globe. This was very appealing to my sense of freedom and yes, my urge for payback after 9/11.

I'm a sucker for my country. I love it. The UN and Europe is made up primarily of pussies. I still believe both of those things. I felt that Saddam would be allowed to do anything he wanted within his borders as far as weaponization as long as the UN is in charge, just like Iran is doing right now. Someone needed to stand up to him. It looked to me like it had to be us.

In the end Iraq took our eye off Afghanistan, Saddam didn't have WMDs, and it was nothing like the cakewalk we were told it would be. A lot of that is due to the management after the initial invasion, but the overall idea behind the invasion is still a hugely arrogant position now that I look back on it and had a very small chance at success from the get go. Going into Iraq was a mistake.

With that said I still support the war, for two primary reasons. A) We have already gone in and it is in both our and the world's best interests to leave a stable government in some semblance to a democracy in place. The old democracies don't attack other democracies idiom still rings true. Even if the grandiose visions that initially spurred us to invade cannot be realized it does not change the fact that a prosperous democracy in the Middle East is a major positive for the West. B) Our invasion of Iraq has drastically increased the power of Iran, who has the potential to be a much larger thorn in our side than Iraq ever was. Now that we are there we MUST achieve at the very least an acceptable stalemate in Iraq. Due to the surge and our failure to follow Obama and Biden's council we are well on our way to just such an outcome.

I am mostly conservative, but I am open minded. I don't give a shit about gay marriage, abortion isn't something I'd ever make my decision based on, and I'm not a religious freak. I like to think I've thought most of my positions through far enough that I can be a little nuanced in my postions, i.e. I don't need believe the initial invasion was a good idea in order to support our efforts there now, or that the fact that we can never achieve all of our initial goals means we should completely abandon an opportunity to in fact bring some positive change to the region.

But it's entirely possible I'm wrong again.

[Fammaden]

I don't find military action to be a realistic way of changing the order in Iraq. What do we do? Stay forever? Take over? I don't see any evidence that we can ever pull out and not expect to see the country or the region just devolve straight back to what it has been for a long time. If we want them independent then why shouldn't we treat them as partners and equals rather than puppets or slaves? If prosperity is the path to neutrality and non aggression then it seems like we need to let them achieve that and encourage it, dudes with guns just confuses the issue if you ask me. Everyone, especially conservatives, seem to point to China as a shining example of spreading democracy. Which is to say, make them prosperous through capitalism and screw democratic government while they develop financial reasons to join the first world and not squander their gifts on idealism and fanaticism. Did we position troop brigades in China to achieve this, or did we welcome them as a partner?

[Gilgamel]

China isn't a good analogy, because it's turning capitalist but not democratic, and it's so fucking big we never even considered trying to turn it by force. With China and Russia we had to try to accomplish our objectives incrementally. We're hopeful that with economic reforms will come more and more political freedoms(which to a small extent has occured), but full fledged democracy in China is still a pipe dream.

Russia, as Khorum has brought up here before, is an example of a wasted opportunity. We successfully brought down their communist leadership but we didn't meld our future together with theirs like we did with China. China may not love us geopolitically, but we're so connected economically that they really can't harbor any true ill will toward us without hurting themselves. Russia on the other hand we basically abandoned after the wall fell, and without our economic support they were weak enough for Putin to reestablish almost a strongman rule. Hence the new cold war we're going to deal with over the next few years.

Iraq is unique. Now that we've finally established order we just have to hope that the Iraqis continue to coalesce around their government. Who knows if Islam and democracy will mix, but the idea of a strong, successful, democratic, Muslim ally in the heart of the Middle East is pretty fucking appealing.

Afghanistan....is a clusterfuck. It has almost no resources with which to build an economy, a shitty education and infrastructure system, and pockets of extremism that make Iraq look like Central Park. Yet we had to go in and take out the Taliban. I cannot tell you what a successful Afghan campaign would look like other than by saying we get Bin Laden and get the fuck out without leaving a mess behind, which may be impossible.

[Banal]

Originally Posted by Gilgamel

a successful Afghan campaign

A successful campaign would be one where we are better at asymmetric warfare than they are and have clearly defined objectives.

[Soriak]

Wtf is this about...
Defenders of Wildlife (<- according to Wikipedia, not crazy nutobs)

Sarah Palin has supported aerial hunting since taking office despite the fact that the National Academy of Sciences, the National Research Council, the American Society of Mammalogists, and more than 120 other scientists have called for a halt to the program, citing its lack of scientific justification and despite opposition from many hunters who see it as violating the sportsmen's ethic of fair chase. Palin in 2007 even proposed offering a bounty of $150 per wolf, as long as the hunter provided the wolf's foreleg as proof of the kill. And just earlier this year, she introduced legislation to expand the program and derail a scheduled August 2008 citizens' vote on the issue. The bounty was determined to violate the state's constitution and her legislation failed.

[Gilgamel]

Originally Posted by Banal

A successful campaign would be one where we are better at asymmetric warfare than they are and have clearly defined objectives.

Hard to beat a civilian guerilla force without being able to offer them a better alternative. Supposedly that's why we're busting our ass on infrastructure so they can have some kind of alternative to fundamentalism and poppy fields. I read a long article a few weeks ago about Afghanistan, seriously depressing.

Caveat emptor. We bought it when we went after Bin Laden, and now we have to live with it.

[Jedite]

A few opinions on todays events.

1. McCain publicly supporting his ads that say that Obama was talking about Palin. He came off as a nutjob during the view when he tried to defend those ads as anything else but lies.

2. Obamas new ads.. They are good but not good enough.. They need to be sharper and with a little more edge.

3. Palins next interview with Hannity. WHAT THE FUCK!?!?! Thats not going to be an interview, its going to be Hannity playing cheerleader for Palin. *sigh*



As a side note, I can't believe that during this election we have heard 0 talk on Electoral Reform, particularly Voting Machine accountability. The last 2 elections were plagued by very suspicious and outright fraudulent events, and to not hear any of the news media or either campaign try to tackle this issue really puts a blemish on the entire process. The fact is that maybe once again Americans will not decide who will be President. We don't know that for sure, but until we can get Machines that actually spit out a paper reciept with your vote and you can double check that, I don't think many of us will be happy with election results even if our guy wins.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Jedite

A few opinions on todays events.

1. McCain publicly supporting his ads that say that Obama was talking about Palin. He came off as a nutjob during the view when he tried to defend those ads as anything else but lies.

2. Obamas new ads.. They are good but not good enough.. They need to be sharper and with a little more edge.

3. Palins next interview with Hannity. WHAT THE FUCK!?!?! Thats not going to be an interview, its going to be Hannity playing cheerleader for Palin. *sigh*



As a side note, I can't believe that during this election we have heard 0 talk on Electoral Reform, particularly Voting Machine accountability. The last 2 elections were plagued by very suspicious and outright fraudulent events, and to not hear any of the news media or either campaign try to tackle this issue really puts a blemish on the entire process. The fact is that maybe once again Americans will not decide who will be President. We don't know that for sure, but until we can get Machines that actually spit out a paper reciept with your vote and you can double check that, I don't think many of us will be happy with election results even if our guy wins.

There are two types of Republicans. There are the kind like the ones on this board who are smart enough to understand the tactics and techniques of the Republican party to win elections. They are cynical and know that the way to win elections is to use the stupidity of the people. They know that the media only covers gaffes, scandal, and controversy; not issues.

The Republicans on this board know very well that Sarah Palin is an inept and pitiful choice as VP. They know that the Republicans will not decrease taxes and are actually scared to death that McCain will die and Palin will be President. However, they also know there are more stupid people in this country than smart people and manipulate them to win. They know how to claim ownership of the bible, guns, and the flag to win.

McCain will win the election but this country will continue to sink deeper into more wars, division, and stupidity. In another 4 years that stupid cunt Palin will win again using the same techniques. We will continue to sink. The people in the red states have to hit rock bottom before they wake up and understand that their dumb asses have been manipulated by Karl Rove.

One day the people in this country will wake up and understand that it is a benefit to have someone smart in the Presidency. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be this election. The only relief I have is that the people hurt most by a McCain-Palin administration will be the dumb fucks in the fly over states. I take comfort in that knowledge.

[chaos]

Analysis: McCain's claims skirt facts, test voters - Yahoo! News

^ Interesting report. It's so wierd, the truth is out there, reports are being done, and still McCain and Palin repeat the same lies over and over and people believe them. It's really frustrating to me, that no one seems to care what the truth really is. The man said though, it's all about personality. And that's turning out to be true. What a sad day for America. Although I guess nothing has changed really, it's always been that way. Marketing outweighs facts.

[Fammaden]

Seems like a cycle at this point. Reagan>Reagan>Bush. Clinton>Clinton. Bush>Bush>McCain. Next up, 8 years of a democrat?

I'm just making shit up here.

[Melchizedek]

... if you are a liberal than you think Sarah Palin did poorly. If you are a conservative you thought she did well. She did just as good if not better than The Messiah did with O'Riley. Its fun to watch my friends who are middle of the roaders switch from The Messiah to McCain Palin.

Oh, and one more thing...

Since when does any liberal give a damn about Pilate and Christ? Many here have openly admitted they don't believe in God (and that is your right), but do you think for one moment that Donna Brazil, some back bencher congressman from TN, or some celebritard saying that is going to convince people to vote Obama?

LMFAOATWTTB!

That comment right there just completely energized The Christians in this country because the people who are saying that have no context to the story and they get it all wrong. The Obama camp is now comparing all governors to Pilate and all community orginizers (LOL) to Christ.

We may take back the house and senate at this rate!

Keep it up!

edit: Spell check Ftl

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Melchizedek

... if you are a liberal than you think Sarah Palin did poorly. If you are a conservative you thought she did well. She did just as good if not better than The Messiah did with O'Riley. Its fun to watch my friends who are middle of the roaders switch from The Messiah to McCain Palin.

Oh, and one more thing...

Since when does any liberal give a damn about Pilot and Christ? Many here have openly admitted they don't believe in God (and that is your right), but do you think for one moment that Donna Brazil, some back bencher congressman from TN, or some celebritard saying that is going to convince people to vote Obama?

LMFAOATWTTB!

That comment right there just completely energized The Christians in this country because the people who are saying that have no context to the story and they get it all wrong. The Obama camp is now comparing all governors to Pilot and all community orginizers (LOL) to Christ.

We may take back the house and senate at this rate!

Keep it up!

no one compared governors to pilots, they fly planes.

Do you mean Pontius Pilate?

[Melchizedek]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

There are two types of Republicans. There are the kind like the ones on this board who are smart enough to understand the tactics and techniques of the Republican party to win elections. They are cynical and know that the way to win elections is to use the stupidity of the people. They know that the media only covers gaffes, scandal, and controversy; not issues.

The Republicans on this board know very well that Sarah Palin is an inept and pitiful choice as VP. They know that the Republicans will not decrease taxes and are actually scared to death that McCain will die and Palin will be President. However, they also know there are more stupid people in this country than smart people and manipulate them to win. They know how to claim ownership of the bible, guns, and the flag to win.

McCain will win the election but this country will continue to sink deeper into more wars, division, and stupidity. In another 4 years that stupid cunt Palin will win again using the same techniques. We will continue to sink. The people in the red states have to hit rock bottom before they wake up and understand that their dumb asses have been manipulated by Karl Rove.

One day the people in this country will wake up and understand that it is a benefit to have someone smart in the Presidency. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be this election. The only relief I have is that the people hurt most by a McCain-Palin administration will be the dumb fucks in the fly over states. I take comfort in that knowledge.

Jesus Christ, wait, you do not believe in God.

Dude, you must be so miserable. Everything in life sucks for you. You depend on someone else for everything. How do you live without popping a prozak?

The government sucks.
McCain sucks.
The Economy sucks.
The media sucks.
Flyover country sucks.
Iraq sucks.
Bush Sucks.
Palin Sucks.
The war sucks.
Gas prices suck.
The education system sucks.
Global warming sucks.
Charlie Gibson sucks.
Fox News sucks.
Reagan Sucks.
Trickle-down Economics Suck.
Our healthcare system sucks.

Dude, this is exactly why democrats will lose. You are all doom and gloom. In order for you to be elected, America has to fail. And it is not. You are so filled with hate it isn't even funny.

You should see someone about that.

BTW, way to alienate those flyover states buddy. Keep those votes "trickling" in. Gotta love those trickle down economics.

Oh, but what can you laude?

Cuba's hurricane evacuations are great!
Universal Healthcare is great!
Socialism is great!
Big government is great!

Yep, better go pop a pill!

[Melchizedek]

Originally Posted by Kirby

no one compared governors to pilots, they fly planes.

Do you mean Pontius Pilate?

Yes, spell check FtL.