McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Khorum

No Zhaun, that's the mistake.

The Wisconsin, Ohio and Utah voucher programs haven't shut down ANY new schools at all but have instead promoted competition among both the private and the public schools.

As a consequence, the bad schools were compelled to ADAPT and improve the quality of their services and the private schools had to expand their classes and employ more teachers. Since starting their Voucher program in Wisconsin, the competition has improved overall testing results CONSISTENTLY whereas testing scores had been failing for every year as far back as the 80's prior to the program.

But even as the public schools in Wisconsin have improved, the voucher/charter schools have shown an astonishing 24% improvement on graduation rates for their students under the voucher pilot program over the last few years.

Those test results are something Obama is careful to steer around, since his last appearance in Wisconsin was protested by school-choice advocates and Obama PERSISTED that the "results weren't in" about school vouchers.... except for decades of proof in Belgium, a decade in Ohio's supreme-court backed voucher program and now Utah's astonishing new voucher program.

A transition to privatization isn't IMMEDIATE... and no public funds dedicated to those services will be withdrawn. In the case of McCain's proposed social security plan (which is a modified version of the social security plan he proposed in legislation), YOUNG people will be given the opportunity to reposition their social security earnings into high-performance retirement programs, and if that retirement program is obligated to help support the "grandfather" social security system in exchange. You will still see people opt for social security, and POOR PEOPLE will have the choice to use the same ROTH IRA's and 401k's that rich folks use to retire at 45.

Yeah baby, redlink positive shit about my state. Oh, like that. More....little more..............yeah.

It's nice being on the positive end for a change.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by Khorum

No Zhaun, that's the mistake.

So firing the bad teachers wouldn't end up with us having a big shortage of teachers?

I'll admit I know little to nothing about education policies as... well, it doesn't effect me at all. I was just under the impression that as a country, as a rule, we have a shortage of teachers.

[Arbitrary]

Don't worry, we'll have a teacher shortage pretty soon anyway because a whole generation of teachers (those cranky middle-aged woman alot of us had) are slanted to retire in the near future.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

So firing the bad teachers wouldn't end up with us having a big shortage of teachers?

I'll admit I know little to nothing about education policies as... well, it doesn't effect me at all. I was just under the impression that as a country, as a rule, we have a shortage of teachers.

Look at what arbitrary quoted. No voucher program promotes firing. In fact, having the "fire lit under their ass" by the competition introduced by Wisconsin's voucher program has IMPROVED THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

No voucher plan promotes closing down schools. It promotes competition. The mistake is in thinking that competition in nature compels extinction, but it doesn't, competition compels ADAPTATION. It's the unwillingness or inability to adapt that compels extinction.

In wisconsin's case it's clear that competition is compelling POSITIVE adaptation and resulting in genuine testing improvements for all the students.

What Obama proposes is a system that PROTECTS THE UNION MONOPOLY ON THE SCHOOLS... which shields bad teachers from accountability and perpetuates the cycle of failure and despair that inner city families have endured.

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Don't worry, we'll have a teacher shortage pretty soon anyway because a whole generation of teachers (those cranky middle-aged woman alot of us had) are slanted to retire in the near future.

The teachers' monopoly is also partly at fault here. What the unions have effectively created are WAGE CONTROLS equivalent to the moribund keynesian economic policies of the Soviet Union. In that ABC News special, one of the charter schools in Portland cited actually pays their teachers almost TWICE as much as a public school teacher makes. That was the school that went from the one of the lowest testing scores to the absolute best in the span of a few years. Kaplan hires specialists who make almost triple. Catholic Schools, while offering lower wages, offer unequaled healthcare and retirement benefits.

Competition in the education sector in Belgium, Korea and elsewhere have made the profession an attractive and rewarding career, which coincides with the testing results of the students there.

[Smocca]

Does he have a specific plan somewhere that you are referring to? Genuinely curious since I haven't seen it. (haven't looked much I'll admit)

Best I have seen is this speech where he talks generally about the importance of competition among schools and teachers. (though he emphasizes public schools more than you probably like)

[Arbitrary]

The Teacher's Union is the fucking largest union in this country and you don't even need to be on the macro level to see how bad it is. For decades they have handcuffed parents and administrators with awful awful educators who, in any other job anywhere ever, would have been fired years ago.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Smocca

Does he have a specific plan somewhere that you are referring to? Genuinely curious since I haven't seen it. (haven't looked much I'll admit)

Best I have seen is this speech where he talks generally about the importance of competition among schools and teachers. (though he emphasizes public schools more than you probably like)

Yes smocca, Obama favors something called "MERIT PAY", which he reiterated during the saddleback forum. Merit Pay would introduce "competition" in the sense that he would give Moe a raise because he was a little smarter than Larry and Curly.

But guess what, they'd still be the Three Stooges.

It wouldn't change anything about poor families being unable to transfer their schools away from failed faculties. Nor would it relieve the millions of poor latino, polish and other immigrant families who spend up to a third of their income to send their kids to private catholic schools.

Basically Merit Pay rewards the teacher unions for endorsing Obama at the sake of our kids' education.

[Smocca]

Like I said he talks specifically about creating competition among schools and giving parents options. He talks about modifying the system to actually get rid of bad teachers not just reward good ones.

I'm not saying you are wrong because I'm just going off of one speech. I just want to see where you are getting your ideas because they contradict what I have seen from him.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

So I guess McCain said today that the negitive tone of the 2008 campaign is unfortunate and not his fault. In fact, it is Obama's fault for not having his Town Hall debate/meeting things.

[Jedite]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

So I guess McCain said today that the negitive tone of the 2008 campaign is unfortunate and not his fault. In fact, it is Obama's fault for not having his Town Hall debate/meeting things.

How the media is not all over that right now I can't understand.. He endorses an ad and then says its dirty politics and its not his fault? Yup thats the Straight talk express alright.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Smocca

Like I said he talks specifically about creating competition among schools and giving parents options. He talks about modifying the system to actually get rid of bad teachers not just reward good ones.

I'm not saying you are wrong because I'm just going off of one speech. I just want to see where you are getting your ideas because they contradict what I have seen from him.

Obama has been criticized by black commentators for his position AGAINST vouchers. Note that Roland Martin is an Obama supporter. His platform imposes substantial STATE SOLUTIONS into what is already a failed apparatus. He invoked "Merit Pay" in that speech and in the Saddleback forum but has refused to provide specifics. He has refused to acknowledge the success of voucher systems in Utah, Ohio and Wisconsin opting instead to say that the "results aren't in". This after the supreme court upheld the ohio voucher program (which has been a success for almost a decade) and as you've seen, the improving scores in Wisconsin's program.

Most importantly, Obama has no credibility on this issue anymore than he has on NAFTA or the Economy. In the case of his position NAFTA (which he ALSO made in Ohio) Obama lied in front of millions of Ohio workers and faxed his deception in writing to the Canadian embassy.

[Gilgamel]

I just can't believe Obama pussy'd out. He would have done OK once he got used to the format. I genuinely liked the guy, but being chickenshit on that makes me lose a lot of respect for the man.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

So I guess McCain said today that the negitive tone of the 2008 campaign is unfortunate and not his fault. In fact, it is Obama's fault for not having his Town Hall debate/meeting things.

The town hall debates would have been a huge mistake. Not only do they play into McCain strength, it allows McCain to set the agenda. Also, McCain has Karl Rove people in his campaign now. They would have put shills in the town hall to sabotage the town hall.

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

So I guess McCain said today that the negitive tone of the 2008 campaign is unfortunate and not his fault. In fact, it is Obama's fault for not having his Town Hall debate/meeting things.

Yeah, I buy that. I don't really see any valid reason for Obama to refuse the town hall meetings. I think they'd have cleared up a lot of the ridiculous talking points in this election. He preaches hope and change, but he refused a series of debates that would have been a huge service to the American people in selecting their President.

I realize it is because he can't speak very well off the cuff. He is much better in speeches so he wants to focus on that. But still, I think he should have done them.

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

The town hall debates would have been a huge mistake. Not only do they play into McCain strength, it allows McCain to set the agenda. Also, McCain has Karl Rove people in his campaign now. They would have put shills in the town hall to sabotage the town hall.

You should creep silently back into the night, Bitch.