McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[Smocca]

Yes because cost/benefit has nothing to do with it. As long as any good came out of Iraq is wasn't a mistake. Simplifying situations to the point of uselessness is a worthy cause.

Yay.

[Melchizedek]

Originally Posted by Badass

Mylek - this is not the place for facts. Take your facts and go live in Russia you communist! This is about neo-con spin and Khorum showing us all how dumb he really is by so ignorantly defending the Iraq War.

McCAIN 08! USA USA USA USA

You are the one who is genuinely ignorant. I think you take the cake... You are more out there than IRB.

And what is wrong with saying USA USA USA? Is it not cool to love your country? You know, for all our faults, our country is a hell of a lot better than anything out there.

Go hate hate all you want.

USA USA USA

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by Melchizedek

You are the one who is genuinely ignorant. I think you take the cake... You are more out there than IRB.

And what is wrong with saying USA USA USA? Is it not cool to love your country? You know, for all our faults, our country is a hell of a lot better than anything out there.

Go hate hate all you want.

USA USA USA

Swing and a miss!

Where is IRB anyways? He get a vacation?

[Heavens_Myst]

Originally Posted by headspace

I can't understand why she hasn't gotten more shit for that line yet. That is some straight up 1984, scary as fuck, fascist bullshit. There is no way i can support someone who wants to bypass due process.

What? Why do non-U.S. citizens conducting acts of war while not in uniform and using civilians as human shields, violating the laws and customs of war, deserve the same rights provided to Americans under the Constitution.

The logic you try and use to equivocate the two is scary as fuck.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Meh. Ayers is radioactive.

In the grand scheme of things, maybe he has redeemed himself from his crimes in the past... I don't know. Thats none of my business, its between God and Ayers at the end of the day.

Rezco, Ayers, Wright... They are the reality of Chicago politics. You can't walk through a pig sty and not get mud on yourself. All of those are fair game and McCain would be crazy not to make an issue of them. Obama either deals with them or he doesnt.

I support Obama, but I realize that above all other things, the man is a pragmatist. He does what he needs to do. I don't see Obama as an ideological person. He definitely has a Kissinger-esque political approach.
The fact is that Rezco, Ayers and Wright were gatekeepers of Chicago politics. He used Ayers as a window into the Hyde Park scene, he used Rezko as a way to meet the "money men" that EVERY political campaign needs. And he used Wright as a way into a community he didnt grow up in and needed to make a connection with.

It has been said that Politics are like making sausage. You really don't want to see how its done. Chicago is the worst.

Now, what does that mean to me? I can only PRAY we get a non ideological president. A President not locked into a stifiling world view and willing to try any idea that looks like it will work. We need that type of president to get us back on track and competitive in this new world.
I see an Obama Presidency as working hard to find new solutions, wherever they come from, left or right.

Obama is indeed a political animal. As is McCain, Biden, Palin, Clinton, Romney, ect, ect, ect...

The difference is that Obama is the most talented one running.

[Dokomo]

Because technically, if you are IN the US, all rights apply to you. My friends that I work with that are from places like Ghana still have full American rights, even though they are not citizens. If you are arrested in the US, you MUST have your Miranda rights stated.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Originally Posted by Melchizedek

You are the one who is genuinely ignorant. I think you take the cake... You are more out there than IRB.

And what is wrong with saying USA USA USA? Is it not cool to love your country? You know, for all our faults, our country is a hell of a lot better than anything out there.

Go hate hate all you want.

USA USA USA

If I can Id like to ask you a question.

Have you ever traveled outside the United States? (not counting Mexico and Canada)

Patriotism is nice, and an admirable quality. But to TRULY be patriotic, you have to hold your country accountable and force it ever higher standards.

Cheerleading isn't patriotism

[Szlia]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

What? Why do non-U.S. citizens conducting acts of war while not in uniform and using civilians as human shields, violating the laws and customs of war, deserve the same rights provided to Americans under the Constitution.

The logic you try and use to equivocate the two is scary as fuck.

What about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

[emoo]

Originally Posted by headspace

I can't understand why she hasn't gotten more shit for that line yet. That is some straight up 1984, scary as fuck, fascist bullshit. There is no way i can support someone who wants to bypass due process.

Nope. Not even in the form of a half baked campaign attack. It shows a blatant disregard, by an American politician, for the significance of the concept of liberty and the usefulness of the golden rule in achieving one's goals. These are two, among many, basic concepts that I expect anybody aspiring to any part of American government to understand and respect, thoroughly and always.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by gn0me

lol has this been posted yet?

The Obama campaign responds to the ad:
The Page - by Mark Halperin - TIME

"It is shameful and downright perverse for the McCain campaign to use a bill that was written to protect young children from sexual predators as a recycled and discredited political attack against a father of two young girls - a position that his friend Mitt Romney also holds. Last week, John McCain told Time magazine he couldn't define what honor was. Now we know why."

[gn0me]

Originally Posted by Szlia

What about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

A minor inconvenience to Neo Conservative fascists that wish to redefine human rights and due process to suit their own twisted agenda. The same can be said of the United States Bill of Rights.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Originally Posted by Heavens_Myst

What? Why do non-U.S. citizens conducting acts of war while not in uniform and using civilians as human shields, violating the laws and customs of war, deserve the same rights provided to Americans under the Constitution.

The logic you try and use to equivocate the two is scary as fuck.

This enters into the realm of philosophy.

What do we Americans believe in?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
Sure, not a legal document. But a philosophical one, and one that has framed what American morality is in that regard.

ALL MEN are created equal. Not just men born in a certain place.

We have our rights and our government not because our government GRANTS them to us.. but because they are OURS! Nobody gives us our rights, except God. The Government was formed to protect them.

IF you look at human rights and say the only reason we as Americans have them is because the United States Government ALLOWS us to have them, you have missed the entire point of a democracy and how it is WE THE PEOPLE. What the government gives, the government can take away. The government only has power in so far as we have given up certain freedoms for security. The government can never take any more rights than the social contract that WE have drawn up and limited government to allows. IF the government ever tries to go beyond those limits, it is our basic and fundamental RIGHT to overthrow that government and install a new one as the covenant has been broken.

Why should people we take into custody be given rights? Because we believe that ALL humans should have them, because they are their rights. It is not our governments job to defend the rights of non US citizens, but how on earth can we allow government to do what have already deemed to be Immoral and a violation of the human condition.

Look. Either our ideals of innocent before proven guilty work or they don't. Every part of me that loves our Constitution completely rejects the idea that human beings can be held for whatever reason the government deems necessary, for however long the government deems necessary, simply because they are not US Citizens. Why can't we put these men on trial? I don't understand that. Give them a whatever standard we deem acceptable to basic humans of a fair trial. You cannot hope to spread the ideas and hopes of freedom to other people when you tell the rest of the world, "sorry, your value as a human being is less than ours, we don't think God gave you these rights, and they are only special gifts to Americans"

YOUR RIGHTS ARE NOT A FUCKING GIFT.

Do you understand?

[Convo]

Part 3

[emoo]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

You cannot hope to spread the ideas and hopes of freedom to other people when you tell the rest of the world, "sorry, your value as a human being is less than ours, we don't think God gave you these rights, and they are only special gifts to Americans"

^------The golden rule is not just some stupid crap that's fun to preach about. It's important for a reason.

[Kaosu]

Originally Posted by Manseed

It's like letting a pedophile loose in a preschool.

Its exciting for a while, but then we realized that we fucked up in a long term strategy?