McCain/Palin v. Obama/Biden

[mek]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Such an "anti-American" group? The group is RUNNING for AMERICAN office and the most anti-American thing they've expressed is the exact same sentiments Thomas Jefferson articulated about the intrusion of Federal power into state rights. The group expresses their embrace of the US military on their own fucking FAQ. The group expresses that their sole wish to REMAIN in the USA but compel the Federal Government to reduce their unconstitutional intrusion into state law.the "source" that started the ridiculous claim has retracted its story anyway.

Ahh, yes. The unconstitutional intrusion of federal power into state law. I'm assuming you're going to condemn the Bush administration and vote Democrat due to exactly these issues? Considering FISA and all that warrantless wiretapping...

[The Noble Savage]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Oh how about let's NOT ignore it. How about you show us evidence of this "HUGE" base of the Republican Party that believe gays will burn in hell? How about you show us just EXACTLY how huge that base was earlier this year when John McCain, who OPPOSED the Gay Marriage Ban so vociferously, won an astonishing 78% of the Republican Electorate---around 1600 delegates versus 260 for Mike Huckabee, who was a former pastor.

Right, the same McCain who picked a religious nut nobody to be his Vice President to pander to the Religious right so they'll vote for him come primary.

You wanna talk about the gay marriage ban and how George Bush "tried to ban" it? Well why don't you explain why between Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John McCain and George Bush ONLY John McCain OPPOSED the gay marriage ban while Barack Obama in fact shares the same position on the matter as George Bush's "No to Marriage, Yes to Civil Unions".

What does this have to do with specific candidates? I couldn't care less about Biden or Obama. I don't like Obama or McCain. I wouldn't trust a 70 year old man with my car keys, much less the entire country. And Obama is a politician, and I don't agree with him on many issues. I wasn't planning on even voting this time around, but since McCain came out with his VP pick I've decided to vote against him rather than stay home.

Anyway, back on topic, what are you talking about? Both Obama and Biden voted AGAINST the ban. Barack Obama - U.S. Senator for Illinois and U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

In fact, only seven Republicans voted against the ban. The other 43 voted for it. Here is an article of my own (Senate nixes gay marriage ban - Politics - MSNBC.com) forgive me I don't have the patience to try and spin it like you do. Of particular interest.

All told, seven Republicans voted to kill the amendment.

I mean, it's not like you can explain why Joe Biden was one of the sponsors of the ORIGINAL defense of marriage act prohibiting gay marriage.

And as far as the original bill voted on twelve years ago, only 14 people voted against it. And guess what, they were all Democratic. Leading the way for social change I guess?

Furthermore, as far as genuine executive backbone on this issue is concerned (as opposed to Obama's magical ability to REFUSE to vote on subjects as touchy as congress' weekend hours) why don't you explain how Sarah Palin's very first veto as the governor of the state of Alaska was used to protect the benefits of Gay workers.

Right, here are three excerpts from that very same article you linked.

Advice from her new attorney general said the bill passed by the Legislature was unconstitutional, she said.

The Republican-controlled Legislature passed the bill barring regulations implementing same-sex benefits during a November special session.

On Dec. 20, Palin signed a bill that calls for an advisory vote on whether there should be a constitutional amendment denying benefits to same-sex couples.

But keep spinning your shit.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by mek

Ahh, yes. The unconstitutional intrusion of federal power into state law. I'm assuming you're going to condemn the Bush administration and vote Democrat due to exactly these issues? Considering FISA and all that warrantless wiretapping...

OK, I promise I won't vote for the party whose president signed FISA into law. It's gonna be tough.

[Agraza]

Originally Posted by Soriak

edit: woah... what was that? "She's the only candidate of either party who knows how to properly field dress a moose" How is that not sexist - the chick knows how to cook?

Field dressing isn't cooking. I'd say it's something men have the knowledge to do at least 20:1 over women. It's when you remove organs from a recently killed animal so they don't spoil the meat, and remove weight you won't need when dragging the animal back to civilization.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by The Noble Savage

Right, the same McCain who picked a religious nut nobody to be his Vice President to pander to the Religious right so they'll vote for him come primary.

Right, here are three excerpts from that very same article you linked.

In fact, only seven Republicans voted against the ban. The other 43 voted for it.

But keep spinning your shit.

Spin it? I SPECIFICALLY mentioned that Palin shot down a Republican attempt to override a supreme court ruling and earned the resentment of her party for it. I would "spin" it maybe if I hadn't fucking said it in the first place. And though you're SOOOOO indifferent about party allegiances, you remain so concerned about which party voted alongside John McCain to oppose the Gay Marriage ban. Fact is there were only 12 dissenting votes that blocked the bill... and SEVEN of those 12 were Republicans.

But you seem determined to light up the poor "religious nut nobody" because she's a Republican? LMAO, here, because it's late let me cut and paste yet another older post about Sarah Palin which shows PRECISELY how much esteem she held her Republican party apparatus up in Alaska:

Then DON'T believe it.

Don't listen to the opinion and hyperbole on EITHER side. Why don't you look at the record, instead. It's easy (and let's face it, FUN) to debate based on the innuendo and between-the-shoulderblades daggerplay that both parties revel in, but if you REALLY wanna "put the partisanship down for a second" then simply take a look at the facts:

BEFORE she was even in any political office, Sarah Palin had made some kind of freaky mission out of calling out and tackling corruption in government. I don't know if you've been to Alaska (the oil pipeline was maintained by my old employer so I've been there way more than I liked) but the people who actually live there voluntarily are---well---different.

They're like paleo-Americans, some kind of wild-west museum exhibit that escaped into modern life. You hear about how the pioneers on the Oregon trail must've been some kind of homespun supermen, then you meet rural Alaskans and realize that there's a reason how such people marched from sea to shining sea with their lives in a wagon and children in their arms and destroyed whatever opposition happened to be in the way: they fear absolutely nothing.

The fact that Sarah Palin was born to these people (and married a Yupik Eskimo to boot) goes a long explaining why the hell she thought she could get away with what she DID get away with. And she got away with dismantling a decades-old "old-boy" political network from her hometown of Wasilla, to the main Government Energy Commission in the state, all the way to her Governorship.

She started her political career by unseating a corrupt mayor by promising to cut taxes and curb public spending as a fiscal conservative. And as soon as she took office she CUT her salary by 60%, cut property taxes by 40% as she had promised in her campaign.

She was then appointed (by state Republicans) to the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission wherein she refused to play by the script that the Republicans who appointed her expected her to play. They may have thought she was just another ditzy beauty queen with more ambition than decency. Or maybe they just thought she understood that that was how the Alaskan public oil regime worked. Either way, they were wrong and what they actually got was the woman who REFUSED to take part in their corruption, resigned in protest, then promptly sued and pursued the corrupt Republicans out of their jobs.

"Oh but Khorum, those were just minor nobody Republicans, they couldn't have harmed her!" Wrong, they were the Alaska RNC Chief Randy Ruedrich and Republican Attorney General Gregg Renkes. But in case you feel like imagining that Palin would escape by switching to the Democrats, she implicated them too.

But the AOGCC was still in the grip of multinational corporate interests (not to name names but it starts with E and ends with xxon-Mobil), Palin decided to Challenge the powerful Republican Governor Frank Murkowski (who had APPOINTED his daughter Lisa Murkowski to replace him in the Senate when he decided he wanted to be governor. I shit you not). She won the governorship in the Republican _PRIMARY_, unseating the patriarch of the most connected political dynasty in the state's history.

"But but Khorum, it's about EXPERIENCE reforming the largest corporate entities in human history, not, um, being pretty." As soon as she took office Sarah Palin enacted some of the most dramatic ethics and regulatory reforms in State and US history. She created a cabinet-level authority whose sole mission is to control greenhouse gas emissions by Alaska's substantial gas industry. Against the loud and obvious protest by some of the most powerful corporate interests the world has EVER seen. She then promoted and signed the Alaska Gas Inducement Act against the wishes of BP (her husband's bosses!) and then allowed contractor bidding to award the contract to a CANADIAN company to save the State's taxpayer dollars. As part of the deal TransCanada would build the gas pipeline from Alaska to the 48 states and develop roads, rail and housing communities for indigenous Alaskans along the way!

Then she sued George Bush for being an asshat and trying to kiss ass with an environmental lobby who somehow missed the fact that the Polar Bear population was in a boom and that their entry as an endangered species would bar Alaska from utilizing its resources for generations to come.

What experience does Barack Hussein Obama have that compares with that, exactly?

Unfortunately, the truth is that Sarah Palin came to power by dismantling the ENTIRE Republicans+Big-Oil apparatus in Alaska, which, believe me, was quite unlike any other such "arrangement" anywhere else in the world except for maybe Bahrain. The truth is that Sarah Palin has been fighting Republicans for far longer than Obama, and unlike Obama, she's been WINNING.

Anyway, back on topic, what are you talking about? Both Obama and Biden voted AGAINST the ban. Barack Obama - U.S. Senator for Illinois and U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

And Obama has shown such superlative strength of convictions when exactly? When he spent his years as my senator either FAILING to vote correctly or refusing to vote at all? Obama's position on the gay marriage ban REMAINS EXACTLY THE SAME AS GEORGE BUSH'S: "No to marriage and yes to civil unions" The same position I agree with incidentally. Why would I even bother to spin THAT.

[Badass]

Before we get back to good ol' cultural warfare, spawned by yet another unqualified "appeal to the ignorant inbred masses" republican patsy candidate - lets talk about the republicans utter failure to capture or kill the men responsible for attacking the United States and killing 2000 innocent civilians.

Pakistan misses al Qaeda's No.2 in raids - CNN.com

The big tough neo-cons, even after Torah-Borah, are still too ignorant to utlize american forces to actually kill Bin Laden or Al Zwarhiri (sic). Dont send U.S. forces in to get Bin Laden - send in the local militia! Dont send U.S. operatives to kill Zwahiri - send the Pakistani police! Instead send U.S. forces into one of the few secular islamic middle eastern states - a state which was the only natural check on Iran's power!

Of all the many failures of the Bush administration - none is greater than the failure to kill or capture Bin Laden or Al Zwahiri. Two wars have been fought still costing us 10 billion a month to fight terrorism - meanwhile the terrorists responsible are living in a semi-autonomous region of Pakistan that republicans are too pussy to go into. Fucking unbelievable.

If Obama wins - and kills Bin Laden or AZ - he will also kill the neo-con movement ... forever. He knows it - and hearing his speech at the DNC where he referred to McCain and Bush's bluster of "dead or alive" and "we will follow the terrorists to the gates of hell" responded "yet they wont follow Bin Laden to his cave" - he plans on doing something about it.

[The Noble Savage]

See, there you go, completely glossing over and avoiding what the discussion was really about and trying to bring it back into name calling and nonsense.

Originally Posted by Khorum

I would "spin" it maybe if I hadn't fucking said it in the first place.

You did say it. You said :

"Since as with every OTHER diversity issue, the record of gay tolerance speaks decisively in favor of the Republican party."

I called you on it and got a bunch more nonsense in return.

And though you're SOOOOO indifferent about party allegiances, you remain so concerned about which party voted alongside John McCain to oppose the Gay Marriage ban.

You brought up how McCain voted on the bill, not me.

Fact is there were only 12 dissenting votes that blocked the bill... and SEVEN of those 12 were Republicans.

Wrong. Fact is there were 48 no votes and only 7 of them were Republicans.

Here, once again since you didn't click on it the first time, the vote count for the bill.


U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Unfortunately, the truth is that Sarah Palin came to power by dismantling the ENTIRE Republicans+Big-Oil apparatus in Alaska, which, believe me, was quite unlike any other such "arrangement" anywhere else in the world except for maybe Bahrain. The truth is that Sarah Palin has been fighting Republicans for far longer than Obama, and unlike Obama, she's been WINNING.

This mentality i do not get. She fought bravely against the evil Republicans, now please vote Republican.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by The Noble Savage

See, there you go, completely glossing over and avoiding what the discussion was really about and trying to bring it back into name calling and nonsense.

You brought up how McCain voted on the bill, not me.

Glossing over what? Name-calling and NONSENSE? YOU decided to ignore the actual campaign positions on the subject and brought up how many "Republicans" voted for the legislation as if it fucking mattered how they stood on the subject of McCain's defiant defense of the constitution. You "called" me on the article about the Cheneys' granddaughter?!? What the fuck are you gonna argue about that with? The Clinton's heinous decision to enact Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell?

McCain is the ONLY ONE who dissented with Bush's legislative position on this matter. He opposed it while Barack Obama went on national television and APED GEORGE BUSH'S CIVIL UNION COMPROMISE on the Saddleback forum. I happen to AGREE with that position and yet you think I spun that at all?

You decided to be the fucking hero with the name-calling around here. That's only a couple posts up, dipshit, you think anyone's gonna miss your lovely attack on Sarah Palin as a "religious nut"? I linked the facts about Palin's career and her history of confronting the junction between Big Oil and the Republican Oligarchy and you spew fucking nonsense?

YOU decided to try and bark up Palin's opposition to a Republican bill as if it was some kind of "gotcha", and I just showed exactly why she couldn't give a flying fuck. And NOW you think you're gonna be a hardass and get on your soapbox about "namecalling" and fucking "nonsense".

Guess what, your tepid defense of Obama's agreement with George Bush's civil union compromise was bracketed on what? On the fact that REPUBLICANS voted against it? Don't talk about nonsense until you have something OTHER than a motion to CLOTURE in 2006, when in fact the ACTUAL Bill was shut down in 2004 when the Republicans were STILL in the majority and when there stood a good chance of the Amendment being passed, you hapless fucking poseur.

If you're gonna try to erode McCain's dissident positions, why don't you start with explaining why Obama totes around Dubya's stance on this subject first.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Kirby

This mentality i do not get. She fought bravely against the evil Republicans, now please vote Republican.

It's because she's a reformer, regardless of what party she may have belonged to. It's because of the fact that she was indifferent to the allegiance of the people she was charging with corruption. Bobby Jindal is the other famous reformer, but HIS reforms have been levelled mostly at southern Democrats. Sarah Palin made a career drubbing crooks from both parties out of office.

[spronk]

I wouldn't trust anything Khorum "Saddam" "Osama" "Hitler" "Judas" "Jew" Khorum says, a simple google search reveals that Khorum was the name of a crossroads Mongolian Town in The Barrens and as everyone knows Mongolians were Shamans who eventually converted to Islam, you cannot believe a single word a Shaman says since they all believe in the Earth Mother and like to twist totems and shoot lightning out of their hands, its all the work of satan.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by spronk

I wouldn't trust anything Khorum "Saddam" "Osama" "Hitler" "Judas" "Jew" Khorum says, a simple google search reveals that Khorum was the name of a crossroads Mongolian Town and as everyone knows Mongolians were Shamans who eventually converted to Islam, you cannot believe a single word a Shaman says since they all believe in the Earth Mother and like to twist totems and shoot lightning out of their hands, its all the work of satan.

Mongols are proof that Samurai > Knights.

[The Noble Savage]

Oh man...the Senate has only ever voted on Cloture for the amendment.

Here, a link to the 2004 amendment you are referencing because the 2006 one isn't good enough for you apparently.

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

Oh look! A Cloture motion. I guess we're both poseurs.


And, yet again. 50 nay votes, only 6 of which were Republicans.


You are completely full of fail. You got completely dismantled despite your best efforts to derail the discussion.


Can we ban him for really reals this time?

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by The Noble Savage

Here, a link to the 2004 amendment you are referencing because the 2006 one isn't good enough for you apparently.

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

Oh look! A Cloture motion. I guess we're both poseurs.

The 110th congress is a DEMOCRATIC majority in both chambers. Even George Bush has withdrawn from aggressive lobbying of the act at by 2006. What __REMAINS__ true is that McCain expressed true conviction when he stood against his own party in 2004, an election year, on an issue that most likely cost him.

And what do we get out of Obama out of that crucial vote? Oh right, NOTHING. How about on National Television and on his published campaign positions? Oh, right, the exact same Civil-Union compromise as conceived and proposed by George Bush himself. What "DISMANTLING" have you done except get your own faggotry demolished with your assertion that "LOLZ PALIN VETOD A REPUBLICAN BILL?"

You think that you disproved Biden's central role in the CREATION of the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996? Did you even manage disprove the fact that Mary Cheney's family is happily campaigning for McCain despite that original article you got your panties in a bunch over?

You had your shit pushed in on every fucking subject from Palin's crusade on Big-Oil-Bought Republicans all the way to Obama's expedient imitation of Bush's homophobia, and now you're gonna toot your own horn?

Yeah, go link up another fucking roll call you dumbfuck.

[Sirena]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Joe Biden was one of the champions of the original 1990's gay marriage ban, the so-called "defense of marriage act".

Originally Posted by Khorum

You think that you disproved Biden's central role in the CREATION of the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996?

According to your own link, DoMA was introduced on 5/7/1996, not in 1990.

Also, according to http://www.lectlaw.com/files/leg23.htm:

DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT
AS INTRODUCED ON MAY 7, 1996
BY REPS. BOB BARR (GA), STEVE LARGENT (OK), JIM SENSENBRENNER (WI), SUE MYRICK (NC), ED BRYANT (TN), BILL EMERSON (MO), HAROLD VOLKMER (MO), IKE SKELTON (MO)

I don't see Biden in that list.

Biden isn't mentioned in the summary on Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress) either.

Neither is Biden mentioned in the amendment introduced on 7/7/2004: Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

If you search for "biden" on Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA): Legal Resources and Information you get 0 hits: biden - Google Search

Biden isn't mentioned on the Wikipedia page about DoMA either: Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia