Obama vs. McCain II

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

I agree with your review. Obama would have a hard time in this environment because the Republican party has the more common sense positions on religious issues. Obama had to dance around common sense issues and he lost badly to McCain.

The Democrats have some screwed up positions that puts them at an extreme disadvantage. This will be evident in the debates as well. Issues such as gay marriage, abortion, taxes, and drilling will cause the Democrats to lose any debate. Also, although I think we need to engage the world community in any major conflict such as engaging with Russia, it comes off as weak.

Obama has a big uphill battle to win given that I think the Democrats have some really anti-common sense positions on issues.

I'm not sure I can agree with thinking safe abortions, gay marriage and taxing people to pay for things instead of borrowing it is "anti-common sense". Maybe "anti-evengelical" is better.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

I'm not sure I can agree with thinking safe abortions, gay marriage and taxing people to pay for things instead of borrowing it is "anti-common sense". Maybe "anti-evengelical" is better.

Let me clarify. First, Obama does not believe in gay marriage and I agree. However, John McCain can just say "man and woman" with no other commentary because the gays do not support him. That is a winner. Nobody likes the gays except the gays and they are a small percentage of the electorate.

Obviously, conception is when a person is a person. I agree that the government should not make that decision for people and offer "choice", however, because Obama can not say conception is a baby and says something stupid like "that is above my pay grade" is a problem. That was basically a gaffe but due to the Democratic platform he can not say that. That was a winner for McCain.

Obviously, we need to pay down our debt and everyone should pay their fair share but saying you are going to raise taxes is a losing issue no matter how he tries to say it is only for the rich. Raising taxes for the rich is a problem as those people will simply move their capital in a way to not pay taxes. Lower taxes means higher tax revenue. Obama needs to concentrate on reducing spending as Bill Clinton did not raising taxes for anyone. This was another huge winner for McCain.

McCain was crisp and clear in the Warren forum. Obama came across as a bullshit artist because the Democrat positions are not mainstream.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Ok, I understand what you are saying, even if I disagree with a lot of it.

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

McCain was crisp and clear in the Warren forum. Obama came across as a bullshit artist because the Democrat positions are not mainstream.

Thank you Mr Cheney

[Simas]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

McCain was crisp and clear in the Warren forum. Obama came across as a bullshit artist because the Democrat positions are not mainstream.

I disagree. McCain came off crisp and clear because he gave black and white answers (destroy evil). Which is bullshit. Very crisp and clear bullshit.

Obama parsed his words and offered qualifiers as one often does when they are aware of multiple sides of an issue.

The question is does intelligent discussion resonate with idependent voters or does the sound byte win the day with them too?

Anyways I dont think it has anything to do with democratic posistions not being mainstream, esp when democratic registration is at a high and republican at a low.

[Araxen]

McCain suggests raiding Colorado's water - The Denver Post

Isn't CO a swing state?

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by Simas

I disagree. McCain came off crisp and clear because he gave black and white answers (destroy evil). Which is bullshit. Very crisp and clear bullshit.

Obama parsed his words and offered qualifiers as one often does when they are aware of multiple sides of an issue.

The question is does intelligent discussion resonate with idependent voters or does the sound byte win the day with them too?

Anyways I dont think it has anything to do with democratic posistions not being mainstream, esp when democratic registration is at a high and republican at a low.

See, I thought Obama's thoughtful answers were great and McCain's black and white ones were awful. I am still convinced though that most voters are stupid and see it the opposite way. Theoreticly independants tend to be more informed and smarter, but... I guess I don't have a lot of faith in my fellow man.

[Nerion]

Are you saying anyone who thought Mccain did better in the Warren chat is stupid?

[Simas]

I think the issue is idiots on both sides of the spectrum dont so much think about their opinions as feel them. Thinking is what they do when they come up with a lie. As such idiots are distrustful of thoughtful responses.

[Mymn]

Why does it feel like obamaniacs are starting to make excuses for losing in Nov. already?

Lets see, if he loses it's because independents are stupid.
It's because Americans are really all racists.
It's because dems have no common sense policies (wtf does that mean, especially coming out of IRB's mouth lol)

If Obama loses it's because the far left of the democratic party pushed a far left candidate thru the primaries and Americans on the whole don't agree with far left policy. His association with fucking nutballs isn't helping his cause. You would have done much better and would have nearly guaranteed a victory come November had you selected Hillary. As it is the man who should be running away with this is slowly losing points and has a heated and close election to look forward to. Wonder how many dems are thinking that these days and how ugly it could get at the convention. Cant wait for the role call lol.

In short, dems have themselves to blame for a November loss if and when it comes to that, period.

[Sharmai]

Nerion

How much did you learn about McCain and his policies, positions, how he plans to go about doing evil or not raising taxes or anything? If you would please avoid the crisp and clear answer and instead elaborate it would be much appreciated....


Mymn:
I think you may be a bit confused. None of us have ever said that Obama would win a landslide irregardless of any conditions whatsoever. That he could have an affair with the Olsen twins and still come out clean.

If you look back on the thread you'll see it has been repeated and repeated again that the race vote is an unknown and it could tip the race if its huge. That the new voters could come in force like never before seen or they could not show up like normally they don't and that could tip the race. That Hilary's rabid fans could do enough damage to tip the race or that they wouldn't matter. That a war could break out and heavily weight in McCain's favor and tip the race. That the economy could become a non-issue for some reason and terrorism/gay rights/abortion/religious issues/etc. would again become staple voting issues that while pointless would still decide the vote.


There's a ton of things that have to go right for Obama to win and these have been argued over for pages and if you had been reading them you would know this by now.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Mymn

In short, dems have themselves to blame for a November loss if and when it comes to that, period.

The above is wrong on so many levels. You realize Hillary and Obama had/have almost identical platforms? Also that a generic democrat trashes a generic republican in polls.

If Obama loses it will be because the RNC/McCain campaign's tactics worked. Obviously some blame can be placed on Obama for how he responds to those tactics.

Because of the current political landscape the only way for McCain to win is to paint Obama as risky. The fact of the matter is hes upset the far left (see FISA, see DC gun ban, see off shore drilling, see faith based organizations, see child rapist death penality)

Obama is a left leaning pragmatist. If he loses it will be due to a number of factors including over exposure in the media, pragmatism not lending itself to sound bytes, staying too high on the "high road", racism, an effective republican negative campaign and hardcore-would-never-vote-for-a-dem republican turn out.

Again john doe democrat beats john doe republican. Stating democrats can only be blamed for defeat, and as such claiming republicans are powerless to sway opinion in this election, is simply wrong.

[Nerion]

Ya'll are taking a simple question and trying to turn what I said into this complicated denouncement of Obama. All I asked was if Zhaun was saying that anyone who thought Mccain did better than Obama is stupid, that is all.


--------------------------------

As for what I learned about Mccains policies from the debate...

I picked up him talking about how he will support stem cell research, but will want to push for using a form of skin stem cells instead.

He went into his medical program- talking about the 5000 deductable to work with existing medical insurance instead of creating a whole new system.

Also, I came away feeling alot stronger about Mccain and his ability to present himself compared to Obama. Obama seemed to feel out of place and did not do as well as he usually does presenting himself. Others will disagree with me, that I am sure of, but deep down inside I pride myself on trying to look at things objectively.

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Mymn

It's because dems have no common sense policies (wtf does that mean, especially coming out of IRB's mouth lol)

Common Sense

• Low taxes are good.
• Drilling for oil in the US is good.
• Not killing babies is good (Pro-Life).
• Cutting federal spending is good.
• Talking tough to our enemies is good.
• Gay marriage is stupid.
• Wrapping yourself in the American flag is good.
• Attacking your opponent is good and works.

Those are "common sense" positions and owned by the Republicans. The world is a lot more complex than those positions and there is a Democratic response to each one however for the purposes of winning Presidential campaigns they will not work.

This is the reason Republicans win elections but can not run a successful administration. Democrats are piss poor at running elections but tend to govern well when they can win. At this point in time, after watching the Rick Warren forum, I think McCain will win but he will be a worse president than Bush. Hillary will win in 2012 against whoever McCain selects as his VP because McCain will not live through a full term or will be in very poor health to run for a second term.

If Obama has the same performance in the debates as he had on the Rick Warren forum he is toast. Of course a good performance may turn things around. I do think that if Obama can pull this off he will be one of the greatest Presidents of all time.

By the way I am convinced that McCain knew the questions ahead of time. See the clips below. How did he know this question?

[Sharmai]

I picked up him talking about how he will support stem cell research, but will want to push for using a form of skin stem cells instead.

Excatly a crisp and clear answer that doesn't actually say a damn thing. From who did he learn this? Is McCain a medical major now? Scientologiest claim their own version of facts about evolution but we know what they are saying and can debunk them. McCain just through up this statement about a breakthrough in skin cell stem cell research? Say what? Elaborate please McCain.

He went into his medical program- talking about the 5000 deductable to work with existing medical insurance instead of creating a whole new system.

The he said he doesn't want to raise anyone's taxes. Did that and this statment not confuse you like it did me? How does he propose to do this? Elaborate please McCain.


I'm not saying what he said wasn't true but I am saying that everything he said was directed towards someone who doesn't talk back. Stupid people who only care about answers at face value and not how he plans on doing all these wonderful things!

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

I'm not saying what he said wasn't true but I am saying that everything he said was directed towards someone who doesn't talk back. Stupid people who only care about answers at face value and not how he plans on doing all these wonderful things!

Oh the sweet, sweet irony of politics.