Obama vs. McCain II

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by Araxen

North Korea hangs on to their communism pretty well and the conditions there are pretty deplorable. It's going to be awhile before China comes close to switching over to democracy. It won't be in my lifetime I know that.

North Korea isn't the fastest growing economy in the world though, with a rising middle class sold on the American dream of rampant consumption.

[whatsamattau]

Oh, that's a "great struggle" for him.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

The Chinese are a lot different than most people think. This is a culture that's been around 4,000 years and the only thing on their mind is stability.

Sure, a few thousand people get antsy and want it to be like America. For the most part, people in China think their government is doing fine. And it is. China is the shining example of how a (mostly) benevolent ruler (in this case, the Party) can incite and guide a nation to prosper.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

The Chinese are a lot different than most people think. This is a culture that's been around 4,000 years and the only thing on their mind is stability.

Sure, a few thousand people get antsy and want it to be like America. For the most part, people in China think their government is doing fine. And it is. China is the shining example of how a (mostly) benevolent ruler (in this case, the Party) can incite and guide a nation to prosper.

...so long as that ruler (in this case, the Party) is wise enough to realize the cataclysmic effects of ACTUAL communism, and therefore opts to introduce market forces into the society over which he/she/it lords.

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

And it is. China is the shining example of how a (mostly) benevolent ruler (in this case, the Party) can incite and guide a nation to prosper.

It's still a political and ecological nightmare, and I'm not sure how much of a shining example they are when they've basically just wedded authoritarian rule with market capitalism (and strong business ties) to make, well, market fascism.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

China is the shining example of how a (mostly) benevolent ruler (in this case, the Party) can incite and guide a nation to prosper.

Benevolent if you don't care about civil liberties like due process, rule of law, free speech, etc - sure.

And although their economic boom has been pretty remarkable, their index isn't exactly without its troubles either:



From the end of 2007, they've lost almost 2/3rd of their value. That's pretty huge. Compare this to the Dow Jones Industrial Average:



(I hope those charts aren't temporary)

[rinthea]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

The Chinese are a lot different than most people think. This is a culture that's been around 4,000 years and the only thing on their mind is vagina.

Sure, a few thousand people get crazy and want it to be like Spiderman. For the most part, people in China think their penises are fine. And they are. China is the shining example of how a (mostly) benevolent ruler (in this case, the Party) can incite and guide a nation uninhibited free love.

Chinas prosperity is all about observing Hong Kongs success and copying it.

[Sinter1]

Originally Posted by Jedah

It's still a political and ecological nightmare, and I'm not sure how much of a shining example they are when they've basically just wedded authoritarian rule with market capitalism (and strong business ties) to make, well, market fascism.

Democracy and Capitalism basically contradict each other. They also lie in two different fields. In the long run what you see in China could have the potential to be greater than anything we've had in America economically. We've just been bred to look down on China because their citizens don't have "rights" like Americans do, "rights" that our own government infringes upon each day.

[zzeris]

The problem with McCain is being a lame duck at a time when we need change(the positive kind that Bush doesn't espouse). The guy is almost dead and would go against a democratic Congress. Just wouldn't anything getting done. With Obama, he would set a precedent and be held at honestly a higher standard. Really, can he afford to F this up if he gets it?! He is a waffling madman(just like Bill was) but I prefer a guy elected by the people to actually... I don't know listen to his constituents? Maybe do what we want instead of tell us what we need?

Bush only said what we wanted to hear every 4 years and morons ate it up. For instance, does the religious right really believe Row Vs Wade will ever get overturned?!!! Does God want you to support an anti-abortion guy who condones torture and gives preferential treatment to the rich and mighty? Does supporting a guy who uses Jesus as a stumping pitch win any brownie points?

McCain has almost the exact message as Bush and will be another term of idiocy. How many years did Bush believe global warming was a hoax? We need intelligent leadership again(who also doesn't have the entire administration full of his incompetent cronies).Is Obama an elitist? Yes, and I'm glad he is. I don't want Farmer Brown who never got past 9th grade to be leading this country(Bush's highest grade of learning before daddy started the bribes).

We are one of the few countries that doesn't have universal healthcare. Why? We are ranked 35+ on health services provided so its not like we are getting the best for our money. The US is run by special interests and no one cares. I prefer big gov over big business any day.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Sinter1

Democracy and Capitalism basically contradict each other.

Not at all. Democracy and Capitalism complement each other. In fact, you can't have one without the other.

The basics of capitalism essentially is the free market. People decide where they want to work, what they want to buy and supply/demand generally determines the price. It stands opposed to a centrally planned system, where the government determines what is produced. Note that, for example, "sin taxes" are not contrary to capitalism. They are preferable to other measures exactly because they're market conform and use market forces to lead to a change. (bans are an example of something that isn't market conform)

Democracy is pretty much an extension of the free market - a free market of ideas, if you will. Everyone is entitles to voice and fight for their opinion (free speech, right to assemble and so on) and the government is subject to the people.


I'm very much convinced that Capitalism without Democracy, as we see in China and other places, isn't going to be around 50 years from now. When people get wealthier, they demand more of a say... and that's simply not possible without a democratic system. Imo we should see some serious changes in 10-20 years at most.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Not at all. Democracy and Capitalism complement each other. In fact, you can't have one without the other.

Very wrong.

The basics of capitalism essentially is the free market. People decide where they want to work, what they want to buy and supply/demand generally determines the price. It stands opposed to a centrally planned system, where the government determines what is produced. Note that, for example, "sin taxes" are not contrary to capitalism. They are preferable to other measures exactly because they're market conform and use market forces to lead to a change. (bans are an example of something that isn't market conform)

Uh, where do you come up with this stuff? Sin taxes are as antithetical to capitalism as anything. They represent government intrusion into the marketplace. Capitalism is the absence of government intrusion in the marketplace. 'Using market forces' does not a capitalist 'policy' make.

Democracy is pretty much an extension of the free market - a free market of ideas, if you will. Everyone is entitles to voice and fight for their opinion (free speech, right to assemble and so on) and the government is subject to the people.

This is some of the silliest shit I've ever seen written.

I'm very much convinced that Capitalism without Democracy, as we see in China and other places, isn't going to be around 50 years from now. When people get wealthier, they demand more of a say... and that's simply not possible without a democratic system. Imo we should see some serious changes in 10-20 years at most.

Maybe, but the notion you put forward, that capitalism and democracy are inextricably intertwined, is one that you offer without any real substantiation. There is NOTHING inherent about democracy that prevents the people from voting for representatives that will interfere ad nauseam with the marketplace (as occurs today in virtually every 'capitalist' country, America included).

[MrGraham]

Capitalism and Laissez-Faire are two different market control policies, I think you're confused.

[Cybsled]

McCain said he believed life started at conception but he also said he was for embryo stem cell research. Isn't that a problem as the two conflict?

Pretty much, unless he redefines conception as an actual man and woman fucking and not a lab fertilization...although that would have issues unto itself.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by MrGraham

Capitalism and Laissez-Faire are two different market control policies, I think you're confused.

Laissez-faire 'capitalism' is simply pure capitalism. H2O is pure water; vitamin water is arguably water too, but H2O is REALLY what water is. So I'm not saying that the term capitalism doesn't apply to what we have in America (and, to an even lesser extent, Japan and Europe); it just happens to be a very watered down capitalism. My response stands.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

Uh, where do you come up with this stuff? Sin taxes are as antithetical to capitalism as anything. They represent government intrusion into the marketplace. Capitalism is the absence of government intrusion in the marketplace. 'Using market forces' does not a capitalist 'policy' make.

Sure it does. The main drive behind the economy is the market, not a central planning authority - that makes it capitalism. Anarcho-Capitalism isn't the only form...

This is some of the silliest shit I've ever seen written.

The biggest difference between Democracy and any other form of government is that ideas are in competition with each other. Under a dictatorship, you don't have a nice little debate on taxes or the environment.

Maybe, but the notion you put forward, that capitalism and democracy are inextricably intertwined, is one that you offer without any real substantiation. There is NOTHING inherent about democracy that prevents the people from voting for representatives that will interfere ad nauseam with the marketplace (as occurs today in virtually every 'capitalist' country, America included).

Government gets involved, yes, but no country ever voted for a central planning authority. Just look when the notion of Democracy first came up and when transformation began to happen. It didn't happen when the majority of people were farmers, it happened with an emerging middle class - people who earned their money through a market. (ie not nobility, but skilled tradesmen, entrepreneurs and so on)