England No Longer a Country? The Rise of the Superstate.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Yugoslav wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

???

Are you serious? Read what I wrote. Good. Now read it again. You quoted it; it shouldn't be hard. I deliberately said major war, and what I referenced just prior to that -- in the context of major war -- is World War II.

If you want to argue that the Yugoslav Wars were major in any sense of the word, you're free to do so. Otherwise, my advice would be don't nitpick peoples' posts just for the sake of nitpicking.

[Soriak]

I like the original idea of the EU: essentially one area when it comes to trade. No tariffs, free movement of labor and so on. But as governments like to do, it expanded WAY beyond that. You'd think they learned from Russia that a centrally planned economy just doesn't work, yet they mandate that fishers keep logs of what they fish and send it to a EU commission to verify they're not fishing more than they're allotted amount. I'm all for environmentalism, but this is nuts.

As the continent that made free trade famous (see: Richard Cobden and John Bright, to name two of history's great free traders), its people should know that free trade does not require a super-national organization; all it requires is two or more nations agreeing to remove and renounce the protectionist barriers between them.

Yep. This is what Switzerland and Norway do with the EU. It works fairly well, but it's also clear who's in charge at these negotiations. If the EU didn't happen and there'd have to be treaties between each country, it would get far more complicated. Then again, this could also have been solved by making a standardized treaty that each country could sign with every other one. All without the need for an EU bureaucracy.


But worst of all is the current path to circumvent the popular vote. A government that is not legitimized by the people it governs can't be effective and isn't going to end well. I'd be pissed were I a citizen of a member state that "my" politicians actually try to come up with ways to avoid a public vote. This should be put to one even if it weren't necessary, simply to respect the institution of Democracy.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

If you want to argue that the Yugoslav Wars were major in any sense of the word, you're free to do so. Otherwise, my advice would be don't nitpick peoples' posts just for the sake of nitpicking.

So at what point do you think a war starts being major when this one wasn't?

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

So at what point do you think a war starts being major when this one wasn't?

Major powers engaged in total war. The two World Wars and the Napoleonic Wars are what I was thinking of in referring to a Europe that had not experienced such a war, and in which such a war seems inconceivable.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

Major powers engaged in total war. The two World Wars and the Napoleonic Wars are what I was thinking of in referring to a Europe that had not experienced such a war, and in which such a war seems inconceivable.

So the US hasn't seen a major war either then?

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

So the US hasn't seen a major war either then?

The US, you may have have forgotten, was involved in both World Wars.

I'd hasten to add that I am not trying to coin a definition here, nor did I intend to make a big deal out of the words major war; this is you picking nits.

If you're referring to wars aside from the World Wars, then no, I would say the US has -- besides those -- never been involved in a major war in the sense that I was referring to major war. 600,000 died in the Civil War, as compared to what, 10 million in the First World War and well in excess of 20 million in the Second World War. The Civil War involved two -- at best -- nations, with the end result being the suppressing of one nascent nation, and its being re-subsumed into union to which it previous belonged. The World Wars each involved multiple great powers, and the end result of each were seismic shifts in the global balance of power and wholesale changes in world order.

Are they even comparable?

[Gigfc]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

So the US hasn't seen a major war either then?

.

[Quineloe]

What I got out of your initial argument was that Europe, unlike the USA hasn't seen a major war for 50 years. Were you trying to say that?

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

What I got out of your initial argument was that Europe, unlike the USA hasn't seen a major war for 50 years. Were you trying to say that?

If you got that out of my initial argument it's because you came in looking for that.

What I was saying was that the Europe of the past fifty years, unlike the Europe of the fifty years prior to that, had not seen a major war, and that the notion of such a war occurring anytime soon was prima facie absurd.

[Vim]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

The benefits are numerous, and it's probable that the EU will be a bigger world player than the United States, which is fine in my book. However, the power to do so must come from consent of the people.

History is a great thing at times. It allows us to see our mistakes and learn from them, it allows us to see tendencies and similarities in our past, and quite possibly in our future behavior.

With that said, as some or all of you may know, the European continent has been host to countless events in history, good and bad. From wars, diseases, famine, controversies related to the aforementioned, conflicts between countries within..., etc...

A friend of mine (European citizen) told me quite recently that the European Union is a great idea in theory (like many things), but in paper and in the long run it just won't last or work because of many factors. I've also been reading a lot of newspaper articles (in my case in Spain) about the end of the union, the end of the euro and so on and so forth... With factors like these passing through my mind, a lot of ideas have accumulated and I would really like to see what other people thought... Regardless of their position, location, nationality, etc...

Like many have mentioned, the EU works for allowing free trade and free movement within continental Europe... Also, like many have mentioned, the EU has overstretched their grasp of control, especially with politics and currency.

Currency? Why currency? Personally, most people I know that are EU citizens, hate the Euro because it has brought more harm than good (so they say). Shit, but having so many currencies in such a small space is a clusterfuck! Possibly... However, because of the Euro the buying power of most Europeans citizens went WAY down since before the Euro. For example: 5-10 years ago, in Spain, a single father could have one job and have enough money to live very comfortably, provide for their family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids) have a nice place and have enough for a beach house in malaga, cadiz or w/e...

Nowadays it's all gone to shit and credit use is starting to gain momentum (gg the endless debt cycle)

Another thing I'd like to point out is the extreme individualism, nationalism, "patriotism" in Europe. As far as I'm concerned the Spanish hate the French, the French hate the Spanish and the English... And so on and so forth...

Quite frankly, continental Europe is nothing without Germany. Germany is the driving economic force in continental europe (doesn't include the UK). What happens if they do make the EU one big superpower, when push comes to shove and they start doing the socialist handouts, Germany is gonna deserve more than anybody, but everybody is gonna want equal amounts. Same goes for power and influence... Thats when more conflicts starts... What about when the big players start having their influence in European politics but their little guys start complaining?

I also think the extreme socialist tendency in Europe doesn't help, it's just not profitable for the government ("governments aren't suppose to be profitable", no they should be profitable enough to break even or be a tad more than even) or for it's citizens. Spain has A SHIT LOAD of government subsidizations and handouts to the point thats its anti productive, I'm sure other EU countries are worse, because I know for a fact that France hands out more money than Spain.

What am I getting at? We'll it's good to help your people, but I believe that these people are getting too comfortable and when you get to comfortable you just plainly don't want to do shit... And when you don't want to do shit, your country goes to shit.

I like Europe don't get me wrong, but I like the US more in many ways.

[Etoille]

Originally Posted by Gigfc

.

jsut so we're clear, anyone who posts this always gets an internet from me.

BTW soriak i do support that fishing thing - overfishing is a HUGE issue right now. that being said i think the devolution of powers to the EU has in whole exceeded what it should have been (im agreeing with your general sentiment but i think the fishing thing is a good thing).

[Lusiphur]

Originally Posted by Gwen Rockpounder

I have to laugh at the post from Lusipher, ALL parties are full of corruption nowadays, sadly it seems more of the norm than not. Whether you are a labour supporter or SNP (looking at your location tag) those parties have just as much corruption going on as everyone else. Labour especially has had seemingly a scandal a month in the last couple of years and fairly frequent ones ever since they came to office with their bullshit promises of cleaning up politics. Would anyone claim todays politics is cleaner now than back then? the conservatices are still, to my mind, the best of a bad bunch. The least worst if you will...

Being PART of the EU is a good thing, being completely entrenched IN it is a very bad thing. The complete and utter horseshit that is Brussels politics can be nothing but undefendable surely? What about the trips to France for a few days every now and then to sit and vote in a completely different building, the sop given to stop the french pulling out of the EU because the EU wanted to make Brussels the nominal "capital" of the organisation.

Edit: the scandal reported today... After wandering the bbc news website and the politcal section especially, the only story I saw that might come under such a headline was a tory mp and wife who had been claiming incorrect expenses. Something which every party has had multiple abusers of, certain parties with much higher up the ladder ones at that!

I am at Ha, Ha's in Cleveland on the 25th, don't forget to tip your waitresses.

See, this post is a much clearer statement of your position. Your first post read (to me) like the bog standard Tory "Europe = the root of all evil" post. I fully support and agree with anyone who says that circumventing the will of the people and ramming an unpopular treaty down their throat is total bs.

Furthermore, you realise it is the Conservative AND Unionist Party (to give it its Sunday best name) and if voting Tory makes you proud to be English then my only response is to dig out the Picard /facepalm picture.

Look, we don't really disagree over the EU. It's an overblown beauracracy in dire need of some slimming down. It is, however, demonstrably a good thing for Europe as a whole.

I brought up today's news story as it is pertinent to Tory electability. The last Tory government fell in large part due to the reputation it earned over "sleaze". Cameron is making you guys electable again provided that this kind of crap gets dealt with quickly. Seriously, save us from 5 more years of Brown.

While I am a proud socialist the current incarnation of the "Labour" party is a disgrace to the name and an insult to the legacy of positive social change it represents. Pulling these shenanigans with the Lisbon treaty is just the latest in a long, sad line of stunts that prove this.

Oh and about fishery policy. As the global food crisis deepens there is going to be more and more pressure to ignore fish quotas (because the price will go up, ie more demand). Short of a supra governmental body like the EU enforcing quotas to allow stocks to replenish how else do you propose we control the situation ?

PS. To Vim. Bud, you really should do some research into the current German economic situation. They haven't been the premier economy in the Eurozone for a wee while.

[Vim]

Enlighten me, I am here to be enlightened!

[Lusiphur]

German Economy Watch

Basically with the integration of the former East Germany and an ageing population with decent pension rights the former heady growth has slowed right down. There are more reasons than that but those are the two primary ones.

As far as I understand things, in this century the real economic growth in the EU has been in Ireland and Espanol (ole !) but that's changing too.

Every nation in the world will struggle with the current demographic towards a predominantly older population. How they handle it will determine who sinks or swims.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Etoille

BTW soriak i do support that fishing thing - overfishing is a HUGE issue right now.

I suppose I agree, I picked a bad example