The New Iraq Deal

[Ashes Emberblade]

Originally Posted by Nazbuk

I don't believe that place will ever be stabilized as long as we're there. We're basically a magnet for any middle eastern who hates us to walk on over and start messing shit up.

Keep in mind that the Middle East has been at war pretty much non-stop for the last 3,000+ years. Our occupation is going as well as the Roman one.

[Gigfc]

Originally Posted by Ashes Emberblade

At this point, to be perfectly honest, the agreement outlined in the original post would be great for us. Great for the Iraqis? No, they were probably better off under Saddam.

This will sound callous, but I couldn't care less about what's good for the Iraqis. They're philosophically, politically, and religiously backwards.

I would like to subscribe to your news letter.

[Cathan]

Originally Posted by Ashes Emberblade

At this point, to be perfectly honest, the agreement outlined in the original post would be great for us. Great for the Iraqis? No, they were probably better off under Saddam.

This will sound callous, but I couldn't care less about what's good for the Iraqis. They're philosophically, politically, and religiously backwards.

Hell I'm a staunch conservative but I have enough liberal bleeding heart in me not to agree with that shit...

At least with us they have a chance at running their own country and hopefully under someone a bit nicer than Saddam. We can dream right?

[UKBananas]

I wonder what would have happened it it had been Dick he'd tried to arrest:

Monbiot.com » Justice Undone

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Ashes Emberblade

They're philosophically, politically, and religiously backwards.

Much like America, then?

[Lejina Bloodbath]

Originally Posted by Simas

Im curious how you define freedom.

What is your definition?

Mine or the Department of State of the USA?

Those two are quite different; and you clearly missed the tone of my posts.

[Lejina Bloodbath]

Originally Posted by Dontauro

So then troops have to stay over there much much longer if we have 50 or so military bases?

Fuck this country.

Hint : there's still troops in Germany and Japan and they are both "slightly" more stable than Iraq will ever be.

[Ashes Emberblade]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Much like America, then?

No, not really. Our country was founded upon the principles of the enlightenment, a philosophical / political development that took thousands of years. It produced a singular development in human history: a country founded upon a social contract in which the government is accountable to the people.

Conversely, most countries have arisen from quite the opposite: warlords and tribal leaders, tyrants, and dictators holding the people accountable to the government.

It took thousands of years of intellectual struggle to get the Western world to where it is today.

Conversely, Iraq and most of the Middle East subscribe to a religion that is a thousand years from becoming peaceful. They are embroiled in internecine religious conflict (Sunni vs. Shiite,) ethnic strife (Kurd vs. Arab, among others,) and external religious conflict (Islam vs. Christianity / Judaism.)

The democratic / social contract tradition in the Middle East is all but non-existent. It's been ruled by warlords and tyrants since civilization arose in the fertile crescent.

The idea that peace, let alone democracy, can function in the Middle East is nonsensical, absent strong dictators and religious leaders enforcing order at the barrel of a gun.

[UKBananas]

I have to disagree, the 'average' Iraqi wants peace, the kids in Iraq are not that dissimilar to the kids anywhere, what we have are factions taking advantage of the chaos for their own selfish aims, factions that do not represent the population as a whole.

Even in our so called 'developed' western societies there are radical elements who would love a chaotic environment so they could pursue their own selfish aims....

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Much like America, then?

We come from the UK, what do you expect /shrug

[Vim]

What about the UK?

[Cybsled]

Ya, cause I mean religious and faction based violence never occurs anywhere outside the Middle East.

I mean fuck, it's not like there was any place in the world where Catholics and Protestants used to blow each other up and kill people based purely on their ideology!

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 06/09/2008 | U.S. seeking 58 bases in Iraq, Shiite lawmakers say

Update and confirmation.

[Mist]

That's it! It's time for the revolution!

Right after lunch!

[Dis]

Just to offset the alarmism by Mr. Grobbie, who tends to play Fox News at times, AKA Mr. Fair and Balanced:

On the safety of the 12 man Mitt Team Question -
Arab Culture has a very nice feature which is a kind of Guest Status. If you are a "Guest" then no harm should come to you no matter what. The track records with the Mitt Teams has been quite good.

There are currently 54 Iraq Army Brigades..the Iraqi AirForce barely exists. Each of those Iraqi Army Brigades would like to have the ability to call in Air Support if necessary. The Iraqi Army also has no artillery..each of those Iraqi Army Brigades would like the option to call for Artillery support if necessary.

Unless I've missed something there are also 4 Corp Support bases planned.

So we have 58 Iraqi Army installations. The commanders of which will all want the ability to get Air and Airtillery Support. If they want that support...they will need a Mitt Team. Having Iraqi Army commanders who english may not be all that good calling in bombing co-ordinatest o pilots that speak no Arabic is probably a bad idea for all involved.

I remember way back when I was on a tiny six man team attached to a Foreign Goverments Military there was a "Status of Forces Agressment". The agreement covered things like the standard of Housing that would be provided. Middle Eastern Toilet Facilities are quite different from Western Toilet Facilities.
Our agreemnt specified that we would have seperate housing built to applicable US Military standards. The agreement also stated who may or may not enter our housing unit. The fact that the local country allowed its religious police to barge into private citizens homes without a warrant was something the US Government was not willing to subject its Soldiers to. So there was a 'degree' of US Sovereign protection that applied to our apartment block...similar to that which is granted to an Embassy. Technically our apartment block could have beeb considered a "US Base".

This is where we get Mr Get Everyone in a Tizzy Shiite politician implying 58 Large US Bases.
The degree of exemption from local law is always a difficult discussion...the Mayor of New York is none too happy that UN Diplomats are exempted from paying parking tickets. Normally in these Status of Forces agreements the US Military insists the UCMJ be the governing law and the local governments insists it laws be the governing law. Then some lawyers sit down and compare the UCMJ against the local law and identify differences, then there is an agreement as to what local laws will be incorporated into the UCMJ via a General Order. I would note that it is legal for an Iraqi Citizen to drink alcohol but under General Orders it is illegal for a US Soldier to drink alcohol while in Iraq. In some cases US Military law is actually stricter than Iraqi Law.