Sharia Law in the UK unavoidable

[GorestabbCoE]

The UK is getting worse and worse for this rubbish. Communities of ethnics segregating themselves from the rest of society, now they want their own laws?

What's worse is immigrants get preferential treatment over people who've been paying taxes here for decades.

I daresay it's not just the UK this is happening to, but god damn it pisses me off.

[Ailu]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Ailu: You're taking the position of extremists and apply it to everyone. You're not going to get sensible policy out of that. Nobody would think the extremist American Christians are representative of all Christians in the country (much less the world). Except, one might argue, they have a lot more influence on politics than the extremist Muslims. As for policies shaped by religion in the US: there are "dry" counties, prostitution is illegal in most of the country, gays can't get married - surely we can come up with a lot more. How about, for example, the crazies who think they're on a mission from god - or that they're doing god's plan in the middle east? One of them is running for VP.

We're far more likely to be destroyed by an asteroid than for extremist Muslims to take over European politics. I believe we have a few Muslims in the state legislature and last I checked, they favored drug legalization. It should go without saying that you can't stereotype a group like they follow a common goal or something - doesn't work with nationality, doesn't work with religion. And if the government needs to stay out of one thing, then it's religion.

The generalization argument is something people bring up when they have no arguments, sorry. By the same logic having the government handing out free heroin to anyone who wants it wouldn't cause social consequences since the majority won't be addicted. I'm not saying Islam automatically leads to bad things for all people on the planet, but in order to deal with problems one has to accept generalizations. I don't know what constitutes extremism anyway. Is it the fact that 40% of the Muslims in Britain today would prefer full sharia before democracy? Or that a large part of young Muslims support Osama bin Laden and that women should be executed if found guilty of adultery? You tell me.

I saw an art exhibition some time ago that portrayed Jesus as a homosexual and his apostles as transvestites. Despite the criticism following it how many death threats or acts of violence did it result in?

Zero. Even the most orthodox Christians in parts of Europe don't resort to violence because we have been secularized. This is not a bad thing. It might not fully apply to Switzerland since you still don't separate church from state for some reason. The US is quite frankly religious nutjobs compared to Europe. But I'm European and not American. Can't do much about it.

The reason Muslims can function in the civilized West isn't because of Islam. It's despite of Islam. You can't live in harmony with other people as a true Muslim and still follow the words of Allah. Just because people from Muslim countries are humans just like the rest of us, doesn't mean Islam and its teachings of oppressing women is something we should embrace and incorporate into our politics. Especially not when its values are something we've been fighting against for hundreds of years. Why should we favour religion over human values?

I'm simply amazed how people can argue in favour of cruelty towards others in order to maintain some sort of idea that all cultures are equal.

[GorestabbCoE]

Originally Posted by Ailu

I'm simply amazed how people can argue in favour of cruelty towards others in order to maintain some sort of idea that all cultures are equal.

It's not just a question of culture equality, it's a matter of perceived quality of life lessening as a direct result: Overpopulation, tax hikes, crime, unemployment - Just a few worries people have caused by mass immigration.

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by Ailu

The generalization argument is something people bring up when they have no arguments, sorry. By the same logic having the government handing out free heroin to anyone who wants it wouldn't cause social consequences since the majority won't be addicted. I'm not saying Islam automatically leads to bad things for all people on the planet, but in order to deal with problems one has to accept generalizations. I don't know what constitutes extremism anyway. Is it the fact that 40% of the Muslims in Britain today would prefer full sharia before democracy? Or that a large part of young Muslims support Osama bin Laden and that women should be executed if found guilty of adultery? You tell me.

I saw an art exhibition some time ago that portrayed Jesus as a homosexual and his apostles as transvestites. Despite the criticism following it how many death threats or acts of violence did it result in?

Could you source any of those claims in your first paragraph?

Martin Scorsese and Kevin Smith both received death threats for "the Last Temptation" and "Dogma" respectively.

[Ailu]

Originally Posted by Jedah

Could you source any of those claims in your first paragraph?

Martin Scorsese and Kevin Smith both received death threats for "the Last Temptation" and "Dogma" respectively.

It's been a while since I read it, but this is the first google result I got.

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph

Found this one in the same search: "Despite the right to free speech, In Britain people who insult or criticise Islam should face criminal prosecution (Agree 58%, Disagree 36%, Don't know 5%)"

War torpedoes Labour’s Muslim backing - Your neighbourhood - Community - The Asian News

It's simply a myth that it's just a tiny part of the Muslim population in Britain, and elsewhere, that are extremists, at least by my definition.

As for the death threats on Scorsese and Smith I'm not surprised by that, but then we're talking about the US where religious fanaticism is pretty wide spread by European standards at least.

[Zerai]

The difference between Islam and Christianity is just time. Christianity were crazy nutjubs back in the day and it's been tempered with time due to expanding all over the world and generally being diffused.

Islam has been pretty contained. As they spread out, they become the same as christians. It'll happen eventually.

[Snugglebear]

Yes, Islam is just going through that second extremist phase. I would say that for a time, many Islamic sultanates were liberal (for the middle ages) and accepting of others. Certain laws of tolerance were built in to the belief system. Today that has faded to an extent.

Christians could be viewed the same way. Hearing some of the rhetoric coming out of fundamentalist Christian churches can be frightening. We don't see as many examples of Christian violence; but then again, Christians in the United States can fall back on a comfortable lifestyle. They have things to live for. Many poor young people in Muslim nations have nothing. Christians in Europe tend to have less of a problem because they are indeed secular. Many European countries were founded on principles of freedom FROM religion, whereas the United States was founded with freedom OF religion in mind. I am disturbed when I see European politicians like Nicholas Sarkozy saying they want a larger role for religion in French society, for example.

But these are all generalizations. An educated Muslim person may well look with scorn on uneducated fundamentalists, just as I do when I see Jerry Falwell or Sarah Palin spew ridiculous doctrine.

[Ailu]

I don't agree with this. The European countries were not founded with the idea to separate the church from the state. It's been a long process. The American founding fathers however definitely had the right idea from the beginning, but that's something that seems to have been forgotten these days.

The only thing that is suggesting Islam will undergo some sort of adjustment to a secular society is that it has happened to Christianity in certain European countries, but that's not really true either. What has happened is that people have stopped believing in the bible or parts of it because of the collision between Christianity and humanism or whatever you want to call it. This humanism has been a very long process. But that's a piss poor reason to assume it'll happen to Islam just like that. Where is the struggle in the Muslim world to make Islam secular?

Right now it doesn't exist.

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by Ailu

Where is the struggle in the Muslim world to make Islam secular?

Right now it doesn't exist.

Of course it does; both Turkey and Indonesia are secular (Turkey is fiercely so).

EDIT: Also, the kind of gross domestic abuse you attribute to Muslims is found in India as well in the form of bride burning.

[Ailu]

Originally Posted by Jedah

Of course it does; both Turkey and Indonesia are secular (Turkey is fiercely so).

EDIT: Also, the kind of gross domestic abuse you attribute to Muslims is found in India as well in the form of bride burning.

If anything Turkey is going in the wrong direction right now. Atatûrk forced Turkey into secularism and as usual when someone tries to do it by force it backfires. I'd say Bosnia is the most secular Muslim country at the moment, but they aren't moving in the right direction either.

As for Indonesia. I really know nothing about it so I won't say anything.

Regardless, though the intentions are there it can't be compared to anything resembling what we've seen in the western world over the centuries.

I don't understand your remark about domestic abuse in India.

[unregisteredperson]

Originally Posted by Jedah

Of course it does; both Turkey and Indonesia are secular (Turkey is fiercely so).

EDIT: Also, the kind of gross domestic abuse you attribute to Muslims is found in India as well in the form of bride burning.

They actually are minority extremists in India. Flimsy bullshit comparisons, I guess anything will do.

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by unregisteredperson

They actually are minority extremists in India. Flimsy bullshit comparisons, I guess anything will do.

Yeah, it was a bad point.

[Soriak]

Looks like the Christians have their own legal system in the UK, too. Wonder how widespread its use is: Ecclesiastical court - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The episcopal church in the US has such a system as well for disciplinary actions (follows the entry above) - doesn't say how much they get to decide though.