Sharia Law in the UK unavoidable

[Tuco]

Originally Posted by Quinloe

We already know that Women have no rights to Muslims, we really don't need muslim women in europe being forced by their families to sign their rights away

Bingo. Women will be pressured by their families to go into a court that treats women unfairly.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by tjac

Are we talking about usury?

It prohibits all sort of interest - even if it only matches inflation. Wikipedia has a lengthy article on it: Islamic banking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - it's quite complicated. Not surprisingly very lucrative though (pretty much no competition still)

If our civil legal system is so "compatible" to the non-stoning part of the Shariah, they can fucking use it. We can do perfectly fine without it.

Well, they are using it - our civil law allows for the creation of settlements outside the legal system. In fact they are also found when dealing with certain international operations. There are still a lot of questions unresolved in international law, so disputes are bound to come up... but those disputes happen between businesses who want to remain partners beyond that. who don't want bad PR, set precedent or spend a lot on legal fees. So their contracts specify that anything that comes up will be resolved in an arbitrator system. It works just fine and takes a burden off the national courts that aren't prepared to handle these questions anyway. Especially when both sides just want an efficient outcome and not win at all costs.

We already know that Women have no rights to Muslims, we really don't need muslim women in europe being forced by their families to sign their rights away

Assuming those women are willing to fight their husbands in the first place, they can dispute the venue claiming they were pressured into signing the contract and it's back to the traditional courts. However, I don't doubt that there are couples who both want to have their issue resolved according to their religious believes and it doesn't serve anybody to prevent them from doing so.

We all have laws that regulate the extend of what contracts can regulate, but it's still based on the principle that individuals and businesses should be free to come up with whatever works best for them.

Sharia knows a marriage for time, for example. So you get married for 10 years and after that the marriage is dissolved automatically - that's not something we have a provision for. In Switzerland you need to go to a court to get divorced, used to be that you had to live separated for some time first. All of that is pointless when it was clear from the beginning that it'd be a marriage for some time only - accept it and move on.

I wouldn't want to follow Sharia either, but what if I rented an apartment from a Muslim? Maybe there are provisions in his faith that require things to be done a different way, either he violates the teachings of his faith or he doesn't rent the place at all. Neither is appealing when we cherish freedom of religion. So I can weigh the option of being faced with a system I'm not familiar with or finding another place. If he finds it tough to rent at his conditions, he's accepting the economic consequences - how he reacts is up to him.

What can't happen is that a Muslim is automatically thrown in a different legal system, or that there is more than one criminal or civil law text. Obviously both have to apply to everyone, but what happens within the framework of those laws is up to the people.


edit: btw, with regards to foreigners being criminal: don't discount the bias in these statistics. Just this year we had a major study here that looked at how children reported violence in school and how they, their parents and their teachers reacted. Turns out school fights involving only Swiss and "West-European" children were rarely reported to parents and police was almost never contacted. Same for fights within Eastern-Immigrants. (turkish, serbs, so on) But fights involving western and eastern groups lead in the majority of cases to calls to the police from "western" parents and a demand that charges were pressed. There's a very strong indication that once you correct for age (immigrants here tend to be younger and younger people are more likely to commit crimes) and the unreported incidents, the myth of aggressive foreigners at schools is dispelled. They still get in a lot of fights, but apparently so does everyone else.

There's some indication now that the same may apply when looking at the prison population and crime statistics in general. Charges may be more likely pressed against foreigners, who are also less likely to receive suspended sentences or get released until the trial. (the latter due to flight risk)

[Drauk]

What i don't understand, is that, if overwhelming majority of population is unhappy with growing non-european immigration into europe and especially with their influence to western culture, how the fuck politicians are still playing "tolerance and humanitarianism" tune ?

Seriously, this is really stupid. For example in Denmark, it is much easier for some arab to come here and live on welfare, then for skilled immigrant from Russia to find a decent job in IT.

[tjac]

Originally Posted by Soriak

It prohibits all sort of interest - even if it only matches inflation. Wikipedia has a lengthy article on it: Islamic banking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - it's quite complicated. Not surprisingly very lucrative though (pretty much no competition still)

Interesting. I still see things like profit and collateral mentioned, so it would seem to have some contradictory elements.

Two things come to mind: First, usury, in the very general sense, is what makes a lot of the business word go 'round. Second, Islamic banking has some religous/moral governing principles which would not jive with western business ethics and contract law. Those principles would also be subject to some sort of leading holy authority's interpretation...

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Drauk

What i don't understand, is that, if overwhelming majority of population is unhappy with growing non-european immigration into europe and especially with their influence to western culture, how the fuck politicians are still playing "tolerance and humanitarianism" tune ?

Pretty much because all politicans are playing that tune, at least here in Germany. The few that are not are Nazi scumbags from the NPD, can't vote for these in good faith.

In recent events, Roland Koch lost the state elections in Hessen mostly because of that. First they demanded him to focus on criminal foreigners and when he actually did that they chickened out and left him out in the cold media rain.

[...]

It's like that in the states too with our mexican invasion. If you don't want them taking jobs, shipping the money back to mexico (and folks wonder why a recession is coming!), collecting welfare, not paying taxes, and cranking out children that are now citizens....then YOU'RE RACIST!

Politicians gloss over it here though because big business loves the disposable, deportable, cheep labor. Do arabs fill a similar niche for big business in Europe?

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by ...

Do arabs fill a similar niche for big business in Europe?

Funny enough - they are not. Everybody wanted and hoped this will be the case, but it didn't worked out. I've yet to see any non-Danish cleaner for example. Here, from what i've seen, their niche is mostly taxi drivers (incredibly good position, it it tons better than taxi drivers in US), and small grocery stores.

[...]

maybe politicians are using pro-islam as an extension of bandwagon anti American sentiment? Just random guesses. I haven't figured out why they put up with the nonsense in Europe. I understand why the Muslims go, just not why they get easy street in Europe in a parellel to how easy our Mexican invaders have it.

[Drauk]

By the way, i don't think Mexican problem is comparable to EU muslims. Mexicans at least

1) Speak language with same roots as English
2) Have similar, although very rural culture
3) After all they are Christians too.

Muslims on other hand are completely alien to EU.

[tjac]

Originally Posted by Drauk

Muslims on other hand are completely alien to EU.

I don't think that's at all historically fair to say. A big chunk of european history has been its interaction with 'Saracens.'

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by tjac

I don't think that's at all historically fair to say. A big chunk of european history has been its interaction with 'Saracens.'

1683 we kicked the fuckers out at Vienna. 300 years later they're selling kebab in the streets.

[Drauk]

Yeah, mostly fighting with them Not to mention that ancient east was pretty advanced civilization for that time, in some areas even more advanced that western. The situation seriously changed since then.

[...]

Originally Posted by Drauk

By the way, i don't think Mexican problem is comparable to EU muslims. Mexicans at least

1) Speak language with same roots as English
2) Have similar, although very rural culture
3) After all they are Christians too.

Muslims on other hand are completely alien to EU.

Yea, I'd rather have mexicans that arabs for damn sure. It's just interesting that both regions have their "overly welcome by the state, but unwanted by the people" nationality.

[Drauk]

Same problem in Russia, btw. Illegal immigrants from former USSR republics coming to Russia. They even has fast track access to citizenship, because of being born in USSR. They are mostly muslims too, but they usually speak ok russian.

[Tolanin]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

1683 we kicked the fuckers out at Vienna. 300 years later they're selling kebab in the streets.

its time for a tenth crusade all the way back to byzantium. unfortunate for the turks that they arent really the problem but oh well!

I gotta agree about muslims not being the same as mexicans. Mexican values and american values are not at their core all that different.. both are western christian dominated cultures. Theres something of a language barrier but honestly people are more worried about the sheer volume and the fact that businesses willing to break the law get to artificially depress wages. As opposed to the huge cultural divide between muslims and whats now a mostly secular european population.

I think you would be hard pressed to argue that the greatest city in the world has ever been a non-western city atleast in the last 2500 years... as much as everyone likes the myth of total eastern cultural superiority in the middle ages.