Clinton and Obama

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

In order to win, do you think she'll pull out the stops, discussing questionable elements of Obama's record of public service, ask pointed and direct questions about his positions on the issues, and try to draw him away from this idealistic portrayal? Even if it damages any future chance of running for office for her, or her party's chance of winning the presidency?

Yes to everything. Even if it damages her ultimate chances, she wants this so bad she can taste it. And I believe in her mind, she won't be damaging her own chances or the party.

Or do you think it will all be behind the scenes wheeling, dealing, blackmail, threats, and manipulation?

Anyone who thinks this isn't happening right now is delusional.

If it goes to the convention with Hillary behind in the "popular" delegate count, and yet she ties up the nomination with supers, what will it do to her run, the Democratic party, and the future of political primaries/races?

It will hand McCain the Presidency in one of the largest landslides in election history. We're talking Reagan/Dukakis level of ass-whipping here.

The Democratic Party itself would survive, as 4 years is a long time in the world of politics. It probably wouldn't recover enough for the mid-terms, but by the end of the 1st McCain term, the Democrats would make enough changes to their primary system to ensure such a thing wouldn't happen again. If for no other reason than for PR sake. And the whole I-hate-you-you-hate-me back and forth between the parties would fly into full affect once again.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Now here's the kicker: If Hillary wins and things unfold like you say they will, what happens to Obama?

Racial relations in the country?

Public perception of the election process and of government in the U.S.?

[Gilgamel]

Well, if Obama doesn't get elected I'm sure many prominent black academics and bleeding heart liberals will be crying like little bitches, spewing about racism and all that bullshit. It's what they do. That doesn't make it true. Don't blame those of us who are opposed to him for his stances on the issues for being divisive when it's his dumbfuck supporters who repeatedly try to make every single criticism about him some sort of racial issue. Liberals are doing what liberals do, getting all zealotous and righteous about a typical candidate and then they're going to have kittens if he loses, because it will somehow be unjust and the result of voter suppression or a corrupt supreme court or the evil racist republicans if he loses. When has anything bad happened to any prominent black person in the US of A and it has not been blamed on "the isms." It's fucking stupid.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

Now here's the kicker: If Hillary wins and things unfold like you say they will, what happens to Obama?

He goes back to being the Jr. Senator from Illinois and lives a happy life as a Washington insider.

Racial relations in the country?

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have simultaneous aneurysms. Thus ushering in a new era of peace and understanding between the many races.

Public perception of the election process and of government in the U.S.?

The Democratic Nomination process will be called the sham job that it turned into. The Republicans will tout their more transparent/democratic process (which it isn't, it's almost identical, but that's how it will be spun) and they will bash the Democrats over the head with it for the next 2-4 years. The Government and the U.S. election process overall takes almost zero hit because McCain would win the general election by such an overwhelming margin that no one can question his status as the dually elected President of the United States. Remember that this is a failing of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Not the U.S. Government. The U.S. Government has almost zero say in how a party chooses its own nominee for President.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Of course being born Baptist doesnt make you Baptist for life. But as you are growing up, what church do you go to ? What Sunday school ? What are you taught religious beliefs wise ? As an adult, of COURSE you can choose to follow whatever religion you want to, but that training, that "born and raised a X" will be with you eternally.

Yes, because children have choices in these matters.

When he was old enough to choose what religion he wanted, he chose Christianity.

So really, THK, why are you a black-hating, Muslim fearing person? Because that's about what your argument amounts to, especially considering the fact that you want a "clean" candidate yet support Hillary...

I mean, really? REALLY?

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Agreed. The media will blow it all out of proportion... racism will be the cause of derailing the "candidate of destiny", so to speak.

As bad as it sounds, I think Hillary won't be blamed for much of it, since you can't objectively criticize women in the media, either.

It will be the failing of the party system, and the fact that neither of them can win in a close-minded America where all they want is an old, white guy as Commander-in-Chief, so the Republicans, who will have almost nothing to do with it, will take an undue share of the "blame".

And people will likely lap it up for years.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Gilgamel

ignorant ramblings

Good job missing the entire point of the question. You do a service to the intelligence of conservatives everywhere.

[Burf]

Originally Posted by Zeste

I am just glad that after tonight, we can rest assured that we'll get 8 years of Obama, and I couldn't be happier.

This is exactly the mindset that has caused the Democrats to lose many elections in the past (not just Presidential).

It ain't over til it's over.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

Yes, because children have choices in these matters.

When he was old enough to choose what religion he wanted, he chose Christianity.

So really, THK, why are you a black-hating, Muslim fearing person? Because that's about what your argument amounts to, especially considering the fact that you want a "clean" candidate yet support Hillary...

I mean, really? REALLY?

Not at all, honestly. I never, ever said he chose to be Muslim. I agree when he was old enough he opted for Christianity. I don't fault him for being born into Islam, I don't fault him for going to that school, for his fathers or mothers religion (or politics) or his stepfathers, and I don't fault him for converting when he did.

What I DO fault him for is his outright denial that he was ever a Muslim. Perhaps it's semantical, but a more truthful statement would be "I was born into it, but I opted out of it" or even "I was born into it, not by choice" or what have you.

See the problem here is, he is painting himself as the one we can trust, the pure, untainted by DC candidate. And as the days go on, we continue to see cracks in this perfection persona he has crafted. We see people like you, attempting to spin this into a racial or religious hatred issue, when thats not the case at all.

I never said I wanted a clean candidate, I said I wanted the best candidate for the job. I am not the one who is pretending my candidate is the second coming, and then getting all pissy and flaming to high heaven anyone who points out his rather obvious flaws and baggage.

If he ends up the nominee, and it looks like he probably will, you faggots better get used to it, because if what I am saying is driving you insane, you ain't see nothing yet.

I am not really sure how else I can explain that to make it more clear.

[Gilgamel]

Originally Posted by Sunder

Good job missing the entire point of the question. You do a service to the intelligence of conservatives everywhere.

What did I miss? The question was what happens if Hillary comes back and wins, and I told you. The far left wing of the party will scream and moan that their candidate, who they always feel is handpicked by the holy spirit of liberalism himself, got robbed. They will come up with any number of perceived injustices that were the cause of it. If it's Hillary that beats him she, and the democratic party, will receive the bulk of the hatred. If it's McCain it will go toward him. There is no conceivable resolution to this where Obama does not win and his acolytes feel it was a just and well deserved loss. Like I said, it will be the "isms" fault, and somehow their candidate's loss will be the fault of others. That's what liberalism is, the vacating of self-responsibility. Lose your job? Not your fault. Poor and stuck on welfare? Not your fault. Didn't try in school and have no college education? Not your fault. Lose an election? It's the less enlightened retards fault for not seeing the light and voting for you.

[Phelps McManus]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Is this only going to be available to couples with kids? Or a $5k per household credit?

The latter would be interesting... if it's an actual credit (ie not just deductible from your pre-tax income) with an estimated 100m households, this would cost half a trillion per year. About 4x as expensive as Clinton's plan, while not assuring universal coverage. (5x the cost of Obama's plan and I'd estimate the same coverage)

Yeah, McCain has the "less government" approach - but what good does it do if it costs so much more? Solutions spurred by ideology instead of effectiveness are worthless.

Lifted from his site:

# Reform the tax code to eliminate the bias toward employer-sponsored health insurance, and provide all individuals with a $2,500 tax credit ($5,000 for families) to increase incentives for insurance coverage. Individuals owning innovative multi-year policies that cost less than the full credit can deposit remainder in expanded health savings accounts.
# Families should be able to purchase health insurance nationwide, across state lines, to maximize their choices, and heighten competition for their business that will eliminate excess overhead, administrative, and excessive compensation costs from the system.
# Insurance should be innovative, moving from job to home, job to job, and providing multi-year coverage.

So, de-emphasizing employee-sponsored health care and supporting HSA's (which I am a big fan of). Really, health plans have changed over the past 30 years. You used to have high deductibles, where now everything is a small co-pay with high premiums being masked by your employer's benefit package. No one shops for cheaper doctors or drugs. People go to the emergency room for non-critical problems.

HSA's are a good way to shift the industry back towards an actual market with competitive pricing. Preventative care is fully covered, but you are encouraged to save money over the year in a tax-free account (similar to an IRA). I had one until I switched jobs. My current employer doesn't offer a Qualified High-Deductible Health Plan (QHDHP), so I could no longer contribute to my HSA.

Hillary's plan has a premium cap based on a % of income, so I expect to be proper fucked with my middle-class, dual-income, no kids household.

Obama's plan will make heath care more affordable... I am not exactly sure how but I believe it involves some combination of hopes and dreams.

edit: As far as costs go, it sounds like some of it is offset by tax breaks already given for employer-sponsored health plans. Any other costs McCain plans to make up for with reductions in other areas. I am not sure if this WSJ article is subscriber-only:

Monday's Interview

Originally Posted by TFA

Q: You're proposing very expensive tax cuts while only enumerating small specific spending reductions, such as eliminating earmarks. Are you worried your numbers don't add up?

A: If you just look at two spending bills that the president signed into law, there's $35 billion just in those two bills [that could be cut]. I saved the taxpayers over $6 billion on one Air Force tanker deal. I'm not worried about being able to find savings in government.

The guy is notoriously frugal.

[AladainAF]

So far, news from Central texas.

Williamson county - an ultra mega-conservative republican county, exit polling appears to be very heavy for Hillary Clinton. Local talk shows are having people call in, and nearly everyone is saying they are voting for clinton because shes easier for McCain to beat.

~50% turn out in Texas is the current estimate.

I'd be surprised if Obama wins here in TX. Possible, of course, but would be surprised.

[Sunder]

NEWS TICKER ALERT: Clinton enjoys wide-spread Republican support in Texas!

[Phelps McManus]

Has Obama's health care plan been scrutinized here yet? My apologies if I missed it in the previous 150 pages, but I couldn't help but notice this:

Obama's Site

Originally Posted by TFA

Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small employers that meet certain revenue thresholds will be exempt.

I predict massive layoffs if this measure is put in place. Hopefully it excludes part-time employees. I wish I knew the specifics of the revenue threshold exemptions.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Phelps McManus

I predict massive layoffs if this measure is put in place. Hopefully it excludes part-time employees. I wish I knew the specifics of the revenue threshold exemptions.

Translation: I wish I knew the specifics, but what the hell. DOOM AND GLOOM! DOOM AND GLOOM!!!!