Tamiflu and you!

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

When considering whether or not to vaccinate against Avian Flu, please keep in mind the following:

Tamiflu And Relenza Should Have Psychiatric Side Effects Warning, Say Regulators

... and...

What's really interesting here is the vaccine called, TAMIFLU, oseltamivir phosphate, made by Roche. When examining one of the active ingredients, we find 1-cyclohexane-1. Strange because cyclohexane is considered a highly toxic substance. It's really funny but oh yes, cyclohexane is the chief ingredient in PCP commonly known as phenecyclidine, or maybe you've heard it as, all, yes again, Angel Dust!

Werd.

[Soriak]

You shouldn't take Tamiflu unless you already present symptoms of the flu - it's not a vaccine! It's intended to stop the (normal) flu from progressing further, or to reduce its severity. I don't think it's even been proven to be effective for the avian flu, just the best thing we have right now.

As for the cyclohexane - it's bound with other stuff, so it doesn't have the same properties it'd have on its own. Wikipedia has the full structure for Tamiflu:

(3R,4R,5S)-4-acetylamino-5-amino-3-(1-ethylpropoxy)-1-cyclohexene-1-carboxylic acid ethyl ester

Thumbs down for names in organic chemistry

[chaos]

You know, I never took my flu vaccine, and always considered the avian flu thing to be a big media induced hype thing. But my dad works in health care, in flo cytometry specifically, and he says that the medical community takes these things very seriously because of the real threat of a flu pandemic. Historically, he says, there has been about one flu pandemic per generation and we are long overdue, and that's why it's important to get vaccinated and to keep up on things like avian flu etc. Nothing at all to do with the topic, just something interesting I had been thinking about.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Just make sure you get single dose flu vaccines if you *must* get them - multiple dose vials containe a preservative that is 49% mercury by weight.

[Soriak]

Well, the major threat from any pandemic is how easily it would spread throughout the globe. A single person can lead to the infection of an entire continent - the seriousness of that really can't be overestimated. You get on a plane and the air keeps circulating, ensuring every passenger gets infected. Some of them can infect other people at the airport, others will have connecting flights where even more will get infected.

Now combine this with the fact that we have absolutely no way of killing a virus and it gets even scarier. (and even if we could re-code a virus, it'd be irresponsible to take the chance of a further mutation that made it even deadlier.) At best we can get a vaccine, which doesn't do anyone who's already been infected any good - nor does it help people who can't get the vaccine. Leaving aside the issue of cost and distribution, work on a vaccine could only begin once the strain has been isolated - and it'd take time to get a meaningful quantity produced.


There's no doubt also a lot of misinformation. Most masks that you can buy at pharmacies are absolutely useless, because they can't filter the tiniest of particles. The ones that can cost quite a lot and you'll need a new one every time you step out the door. Most people can't afford a proper reserve of them, so they buy cheaper ones thinking it'll offer at least some protection, wasting money. (They do actually protect others though, spit gets stuck on it and that reduces the chance to infect someone else - doesn't do you much good though if others aren't wearing them) You'd need proper surgical gloves and eye protection as well to make leaving your home safe.


Likewise a single pack of Tamiflu is going to get you through maybe 2-3 days. You'd need about 3 weeks of reserves (per person) which runs a few thousand dollars easily for a small family. In case of an actual pandemic, you'll have a hell of a time getting it... everyone else will want it as well, everyone will THINK they have symptoms and run to a hospital (where they'll be surrounded by sick people, ensuring they get infected if they hadn't already been) and they won't be able to deal with the demand. Until support lines are set up, it'll be too late for many. (you should take it within 12hrs of the first symptoms, but the sooner the better)

Considering the speed of spreading, you'd be best of taking a vacation off work the second a human-to-human infection is as much as suspected. Chances are, someone made it out of that country, infected others and it's begun. I think pandemic threats are estimated to last about 3 months, until you can get your vaccine and continue life as normal.

You can definitely overprotect yourself and that's just a waste of money - but some degree of preparation is probably a good idea, too. (ie a pack of Tamiflu to bridge the initial shortage isn't the worst idea)



As for influenza vaccines: If you're around people at all, you should get them regardless of the avian flu. It's cheap enough and not being sick with the flu is useful on its own. You can get them at any pharmacy (I'm sure that's the same in the US) and it takes like 2 minutes to do. As for the mercury thing: there has, to my knowledge, never been any peer-reviewed study that claimed a link to autism... certainly not in a credible publication. Besides, even the "concerned" people only suspected it in children and never in adults - so unless you're 6 this isn't an issue.


Btw:
I just noticed that Tamiflu contains Cyclohexene - not Cyclohexane as the quoted part claims. I should have read that more closely heh... that's a different structure and at worst causes skin irritations, but is otherwise harmless. It's in the details...

[Marck]

Who cares? I mean honestly, could it be much worse than the chemicals, preservatives, carcinogens etc. that are in about everything we interact with nowadays? I'm just hoping whatever mutant power I develop is useful.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Marck

Who cares? I mean honestly, could it be much worse than the chemicals, preservatives, carcinogens etc. that are in about everything we interact with nowadays? I'm just hoping whatever mutant power I develop is useful.

Organic produce, no smoking, no burned/fried shit. It's pretty simple to avoid and overall health improves as well.

I figure people just don't realize that carcinogen = DNA mutating. "Hey, this shit mutates your DNA" "But it tastes sooo good!" It's not just about getting cancer yourself, it's also about the DNA you pass on to your offspring.

[ValkyrieIsAboutToDie]

So, let's get down to what's really important: how wasted can you get off that shit?

[tjac]

Originally Posted by Soriak

I figure people just don't realize that carcinogen = DNA mutating. "Hey, this shit mutates your DNA" "But it tastes sooo good!" It's not just about getting cancer yourself, it's also about the DNA you pass on to your offspring.

Oh man. That's not how it works. You're not going mutate your gametes with diet. Even if you somehow did, you'd be sterile first.

[Soriak]

I'm pretty sure some mutagens (which are all carcinogen) can do some mutations that will neither kill nor sterilize you... but with regards to food, admittedly teratogens would be the appropriate group Plenty of those around List of known and suspected teratogens

edit: reproductive toxins go in there somewhere too... man, it's been to long and I knew there was a reason I never went on to study biology or chemistry

[tjac]

Originally Posted by Soriak

I'm pretty sure some mutagens (which are all carcinogen) can do some mutations that will neither kill nor sterilize you... but with regards to food, admittedly teratogens would be the appropriate group Plenty of those around List of known and suspected teratogens

edit: reproductive toxins go in there somewhere too... man, it's been to long and I knew there was a reason I never went on to study biology or chemistry

You're confusing substances that inflict damage during embyonic development with the mutation of the chromosomes carried on gametes, aka sperm and egg.

If your food is contaminated enough to reprogram the chromosomes carried on your sperm, it's just not going to fertilize an egg at all. The system is like a lock and key, and most mutations are deleterious or benign -- they would make defective sperm, or have no effect, or they would cause fertilization to fail. Same would be true if the egg was somehow chromosome damaged -- but those are all formed while the female is in the womb...

So if you somehow wind up with a teratogen-damaged offspring, your pregnant wife probably ate radiated radishes. It wasn't your dietary habits.

[Soriak]

Well there we go - thanks for clearing that up

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Soriak

Stuff

I love how people use the words "scary" or "horror" in combination with the flu. (Not directed at you Soriak, more towards the media).

It's the flu, as long as you can keep yourself hydrated and are not very old or very young, your odds of survival are high. I believe, last I heard, you had a far better chance of dying by driving your car then of dying after becoming infected with the flu. (Note the after, arguments that vaccines skew numbers be damned, the mortality rate of those who catch these "killer" flus is very low.)

The last flu "Pandemic", the Hong Kong Flu killed 33,800 people over a 2-3 year period. (1968+1972/3) In 1968 alone there were 58k deaths from automobile accidents.

The mortality rate of the flu for healthy adults is *extremely* low (.1%, no, I am not kidding) if there is proper means of hydration and rest available. Most of this sensationalism is pharmaceutical companies trying to push vaccines.

Vaccines are for the elderly and children, they are really the only two groups at great risk of death from the flu. The rest of us should be more worried about getting in our cars, our weight or other mundane things which carry a much higher rate of death.

[Arbitrary]

First of all I would like to preface this by saying that the media is full of shit and not to be trusted until they remember the difference between entertainment and information. Infotainment is not your friend.

Dear Lithose,

Cytokine storm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults (a phenomenon that could repeat itself in future flu pandemics). In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason of many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003. Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.

The Spanish flu pandemic lasted from 1918 to 1919, spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. While older estimates put the number of killed at 40–50 million people, current estimates are that 50 million to 100 million people worldwide died, possibly more than that taken by the Black Death. This extraordinary toll resulted from the extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms.

-----------End Wikipedia-----------

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

First of all I would like to preface this by saying that the media is full of shit and not to be trusted until they remember the difference between entertainment and information. Infotainment is not your friend.

Dear Lithose,

Cytokine storm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults (a phenomenon that could repeat itself in future flu pandemics). In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason of many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003. Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.

The Spanish flu pandemic lasted from 1918 to 1919, spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. While older estimates put the number of killed at 40–50 million people, current estimates are that 50 million to 100 million people worldwide died, possibly more than that taken by the Black Death. This extraordinary toll resulted from the extremely high infection rate of up to 50% and the extreme severity of the symptoms, suspected to be caused by cytokine storms.

-----------End Wikipedia-----------

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

That was a cat 5 pandemic. It's a highly unusual mutation that happens extremely rarely..Here is the thing, your standard flu vaccine would *not* have saved those people because the mutation would have rendered it useless.

Even then, the death rate among those infected in the U.S. was less then 15% and those 15% still included the elderly and children (Trying to find exact break downs is a bitch, will try looking in the medical journals in school today). Deaths around the world however were reaching 50% or so, but thats mainly because many people didn't have access to even simple amenities like warm beds and plenty of clean water (Don't forget, this was during WWI). The highest death rates happened in third world countries, of course. Had this flu been contained to western countries untouched by the war, the death toll would have been exponentially lower.

Which is the underlying irony of all this..People talk about the flu like its the armageddon in a box..They don't realize these pandemics kill because people in most parts of the world can't afford to be sick with even a cold. Their living conditions are too poor, they don't have access to clean water and they can't "rest" with a healthy amount of food. Treating the flu is like giving someone Tylenol because their leg is infected with gang green, your going after the symptom.

Do you know that it's estimated that 10 million people will die of starvation this year alone?

When people don't even have enough to eat, how can you expect any kind of resistance to a bad sickness?

The best defense against another pandemic isn't it the form of a vaccine. It's going to come from making sure Johnny Ethiopian can rest in a warm bed and drink clean water. Then, even the *Worst* flu virus that we have ever seen, might be fatal to a tiny % of the overall population of any country.