And they impeached Clinton for what?

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Itzena

So perjury = bad but treason = good?

If by treason you mean turning a blind eye while the Chinese stole nuclear secrets and stuffing top secret NSA documents in your pants and running away then no, the Antichrist Clinton wasn't impeached for that. Which is good. But yes he did get impeached for perjury for lying about where his pecker had snuck off to. Which is bad. So yeah, you're right.

[Gecko]

If the Dems had anything impeachable, they'd do it.

They know who leaked Plame's name. It was Richard Armitage.

Am I the only one who thinks this is just, ya know, to sell books.

Everything else is just politics, and the typical stuff in this thread, it would seem.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by xilsharn

Iraq is actually in pretty good shape. =) Nothing to do with GWB though. I think the credit goes about up to Gen. Petraeus.

Can I get a definition of pretty good shape?

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Do you honestly think that the Plame affair was NOT an intentional attack on Wilson? Evidence aside, just your opinion. We all know Bush isn't going to be impeached for this or anything else.

Without any evidence why would I "honestly believe" anything? Without any evidence I couldn't "honestly believe" that Dubya plotted an intentional attack on his tasty ham sandwich. Without evidence, you're asking me to place judgment based on hearsay and innuendo.

It's cool if you're comfortable with that, I've jumped to a conclusion or two it's true. Hell, some folks don't even need THAT much to think the worst of this president. But the only actual evidence we have on this case only allows me to conclude that: A.) Valery Plame is still alive, B.) Scooter Libby is a chump and C.) Joe Wilson has made about four million dollars on the proceeds of his book (sold essentially because of the media attention).... such that D.) We are even bigger chumps than Scooter Libby

I'm not saying there isn't more evidence out there. Personally I'm sure there was some complicity in the West Wing, but I highly doubt Rove had a hand behind it. I mean c'mon, you think Rove would confine himself to a gay little leak to destroy someone? Karl "Nigger Baby" Rove? The man wouldn't use a scalpel when a fucking jackhammer would work just as well.

[Astrocreep]

I keep checking the OP on this thread to make sure it wasnt bumped from 2004. all this shit was resolved years ago. richard armitage or colin powell were the "leakers" and they werent leaking anything either as Valerie Plame's status was no longer covert. Joe Wilson has probably less credibility than Sandy Berger so anything he says comes directly out of his ass. If you wanna impeach Bush for Iraq thats fine, while you're at it you also have to impeach all the rest of congress and senate who had the same intelligence as the president on Iraq's WMD program and still voted for the war.

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Weapons of Mass Destruction Quotes

[Khorum]

Well, it's not like they can keep harping on the "disaster in Iraq" for much longer, can't blame them for putting different pokers in the fire.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

Just because there's looking to be a favorable outcome to this phase of a completely fucked up war does not lend any credibility to why we went there and the reasons behind it.

There is no victory here. Stop looking for it.

[Duppin]

At this point, I don't even generally get involved in these discussions, because I've realized that the vast majority of people at this point that still defend Bush and his cronies are simply doing it to be contrary because they think it makes them look insightful, and it's just not worth the indigestion to try to educate them.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

Just because there's looking to be a favorable outcome to this phase of a completely fucked up war does not lend any credibility to why we went there and the reasons behind it.

There is no victory here. Stop looking for it.

Lemme give you a hand here, Grobbee. This argument only goes in one direction. You don't have a parallax and you don't have an egress. Basically you're digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole; which, btw, you can't argue out of already. Once the balance of opinion starts turning against you, namely when images, testimony and finally videos of grateful, peaceful Iraqis start pouring out, all doubt about the righteousness of our cause EVAPORATES. Cut off from the despair and misery of the pity-politics at the core of your argument, you're left to argue from a bankrupt position unless you either A.) change the subject, or B.) change your mind. There are a couple great ways to do this.

My favorite approach so far is Al Jazeera's new position just this week. It's truly novel in that they're now blaming the LIBERALS for not supporting Bush's war on terror strongly enough. Genuinely awesome I'd have to say:

Originally Posted by Al Jazeera, Nov 18 2007

All in all, violence in Iraq has dropped precipitously since late summer. With Al Qaeda declared dead, former Sunni resistance fighters wearing American-supplied uniforms, and the Mahdi Army lying low, killings in Iraq are way down. The security situation in Iraq is far better than it's been at any time since 2005. Many American antiwar critics, who are invested in the notion that no good news can come out of Iraq and who (secretly or openly) revel in the Bush administration's Iraqi failures, are reluctant to admit that things are getting better.

Perhaps they worry that, if the situation in Iraq improves, the prospect of Democratic gains at the polls next November will diminish. Perhaps they've convinced themselves that Iraq's ethnic and sectarian divide is so enormous that partition is the only solution, and that Iraq doesn't deserve to be a country anyway. Perhaps their distaste for President Bush (which I share) is so all-consuming that they fear any improvement in the situation will be credited to the President -- something they can't tolerate.

Then there's the BBC's angle of claiming to have predicted ultimate victory all along. Which is technically true, but they predicted it would happen sometime in 2039.

You could also argue that the dramatic transformation of Al Anbar and Baghdad are ENTIRELY the doing of the Anbar Awakening without American assistance at all. But that doesn't really have much legs at all since there's a direct paper trail leading from Capt. Patriquin's powerpoint presentation, to Pentagon mailgroups, to Gen. Petraeus' surge strategy basically outlining the inclusion of Abu Risha and the Anbar sheikhs.

What you're REALLY looking for is way to use the momentum of progress in Iraq into your broader anti-war goals (without ridiculing the grateful Iraqis without sounding TOO partisan) Kinda like how this twat insists that the success of the surge erodes the rationale for the occupation and demands that the surge strategy be copied to every corner of the muslim world just so we can get the fuck out pronto. That right there sounds just like your style.

But the whole "waaaaa we shouldn't have been in there!! *snifflemypussyhurts" faggotry has got three to four weeks TOPS. Start planning ahead.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

The fact that public opinion may support it, and the media news machine heralds it as victory, does not make it so.

You can link what you want, you can tantrum and throw tangential facts about all you want... but in the end, we were lied to, and the fact that we managed to somehow put out the fire that WE STARTED doesn't make us heroes. It makes us responsible.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

The fact that public opinion may support it, and the media news machine heralds it as victory, does not make it so.

You can link what you want, you can tantrum and throw tangential facts about all you want... but in the end, we were lied to, and the fact that we managed to somehow put out the fire that WE STARTED doesn't make us heroes. It makes us responsible.

Hmm that's a little better but you're gonna have to doll it up a bit for the folks who are actually aware we didn't actually start said fire. For most folks yeah I think you got some surface traction, but like I said, when you start seeing people dancing on the streets and celebrating America for putting out that "fire" the argument basically crumbles. Throwing a tantrum would work for a little while I suppose. Hell you can keep insisting that deposing a butcher that murdered 1.2 million of his own people doesn't make us heroes. But really, once you start getting Al Jazeera front page articles that read like:

Originally Posted by Al Jazeera

Ramadi residents also noticed the changes. More people could now be seen shopping at outdoor markets. Students are returning to schools. Patrols in blue-and-white police vehicles with machine guns mounted on the top rumble along Ramadi's streets.

Police said when they first started patrolling the streets, residents threw flowers at them.

"God protect you. God save you," a woman yelled at a passing patrol last week. A young boy also signaled the 'v' sign for victory at the patrol.

You're gonna start needing new material. I mean yeah, the whole "It doesn't matter if she gave birth to Jesus, you shouldn't have fucked Mary, God!!! WAAAh" position is good for a few weeks yet. Just start looking for alternatives is all I'm saying.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull2.0

... but in the end, we were lied to, and the fact that we managed to somehow put out the fire that WE STARTED doesn't make us heroes. It makes us responsible.

Lied to by whom? Bush and his oil cronies? Or your Democratic leadership? Did you even click the link above?

Who is the fucking liar here? Im confused. Because Ive been hearing about Iraqs WMD's from your Democrats for the better part of 10 yrs. Here ill link it again so you dont have to scroll up.Urban Legends Reference Pages: Weapons of Mass Destruction Quotes


Even that Palosi bitch which tries to deny our troops cash is quoted saying bullshit about WMDs and Saddams evil plans to take over the world. But now all of a sudden we were lied to by Bush? How our memories tend to fade over time.

Yeah it ended up being a pile of bullshit, and saddam didnt have shit except some 20 yr old leaky limp shit, but dont try to paint this as some lie perpetrated by Bush alone. This war was in the makings along time before Bush Jr stepped into the office.

Look at the Iraq thing as a good mistake though, because we now have troops and base of operations right smack in the backyard of next shitstorm, Iran.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Ashes Emberblade

Now that Iraq is going reasonably well all the little leftists are grasping for straws. This is about as news worthy as the mortgage meltdown, which always cracks me up, considering that the news types equate a minor bump in the lending market to a nuclear disaster.

Does anyone notice how this Ashes Emberblade guy defends both the right-wing and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes?

Iraq is going great, until the 2 million displaced Sunnis come back and are like "lol why are Shias in my house???" Then all of those Sunni militias (neighborhood watch with AK-47s) that we are making deals with and arming are going to step up, since the Shiite police will side with the Shiite squatters. We might be drawing down our forces by that time, so it'll be like Rwanda with a neckbeard.

[chaos]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand yet another political discussion goes back to the war. Look at the funny monkey, do notpay attention to the matter at hand. Not like it matters anyway, as far as the Plame situation goes it's business as usual, divide along party lines, spout rhetoric, profit.

[Zyro]

The discussion on WMD's has been over for quite a while now. The following is just SOME of what has been found in Iraq.

1) 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
In a joint Energy and Defense Department operation, 1.77 metric tons of low-enriched uranium and approximately 1000 highly radioactive sources were secured from Iraq's former nuclear research facility, packaged and then airlifted on June 23, the press statement said.
"This operation was a major achievement for the Bush Administration's goal to keep potentially dangerous nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists," Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said in the statement. "It also puts this material out of reach for countries that may seek to develop their own nuclear weapons. BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | US reveals Iraq nuclear operation

2) 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons agents
U.S. troops raiding a warehouse in the northern city of Mosul uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory containing 1,500 gallons of chemicals believed destined for attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces and civilians, military officials said Saturday.

Iraqi Chemical Stash Uncovered


3) 17 chemical warheads containing cyclosarin (a nerve agent five times more deadly than sarin gas)
"Laboratory tests showed the presence in them of cyclosarin, a very toxic gas, five times stronger than sarin and five times more durable," Bieniek told Poland's TVN24 at the force's Camp Babylon headquarters.
"If these warheads, which were still usable, were used on a military base like Camp Babylon, they would have caused unforeseeable damage."


FOXNews.com - Polish Troops Find Sarin Warheads - U.S. & World



4) Over 1,000 radioactive materials in powdered form meant for dispersal over populated areas
"Along with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, about 1,000 "highly radioactive sources" were also removed.
The material was taken from a former nuclear research facility on 23 June, after being packaged by 20 experts from the US Energy Department's secret laboratories." BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | US reveals Iraq nuclear operation

5) Roadside bombs loaded with mustard and "conventional" sarin gas, assembled in binary chemical projectiles for maximum potency

FOXNews.com - Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq - U.S. & World

The UN, Democrats, and Republicans knew of this. France, Germany, and Russia sold Iraq equipment for WMD development. They had these weapons right up until the war. Some were even looted and transported to Syria. Inspectors discovered them, destroyed some, and shipped others out of the country. We have uncovered facilities, materials, and rockets since the beginning of the invasion in 2003. It's been documented and reported.

I cannot believe that this is still a debatable issue.