Democracy

[Cathan]

Friday I was driving home from work (typically about an hour drive). It had rained, first time in a month or so. As usual after a drought like that... there were plenty of wrecks on the highway. With no traffic my drive is 35 minutes door to door but with traffic it's 50-60 minutes. There are 2 major bottlenecks on the interstates I travel and it affects everyone taking I85 north out of Charlotte. If they finished widening the area from exit 49 up about 8 miles or so it would probably fix most of the traffic problems going north and south on 85. Charlotte's one of the fastest growing cities in America but no construction is scheduled to begin until 2010. I graduated with a BS in Civil Engineering so I know there's like a 7 year lag for an environmental impact study and all sorts of other bullshit but I guarantee if you put it to a vote that everyone that uses that stretch of road would say WIDEN THE FUCKING ROAD MMMKAY???

I had about 2 hours to sit and ponder our government and political corruption. We vote for candidates that are supposed to represent us. My main concern is taxes staying low, finishing what we started in Iraq and a few other things. No 1 candidate that runs for office holds the same opinions I do nor yours. So wtf isn't there more work being done to make it so we can vote on the issues themselves instead of some corrupt candidate that's only going to do wtfever suits them politically or financially? Is there enough internet access so that politicians could simply be people that put forth possible solutions on what we vote about and facilitate government of this country locally and federally by the voters instead of what we have now?

I support us being in Iraq but IF it was voted on and 85% of the country said GTFO of Iraq now I would support that because that would be a true representation of what the American people wanted. I would say do away with all of Congress but in emergency situations and general running of the government by the voters decision they are still useful.

Obviously I personally wish there was a vote on how to spend NC state tax dollars because my first priority would be to find solutions to the heavy traffic areas around Charlotte and fucking fix them ASAP instead of 15 years over due... But that's not the entire problem.

What's that saying? For every 1000 people hacking at the leaves of the tree of problems... there's 1 person hacking at the roots. IMO the root of a lot of the problems is that You and I aren't voting and deciding what should be done. If we were we could hopefully eliminate and solve a lot of the problems we have currently.

Another pet peeve of mine is that mostly lawyers hold public office in this country. Lawyers aren't innate problem solvers, scientists are... As an engineer I am taught to solve problems, not consider the legality of them. If I need to know if what I'm doing is legal or not I'll consult a lawyer, not ask him/her how to route a road or fix a traffic jam. If the economy is in the shitter I'll probably gather a bunch of economists and business men and probably some common workers together to see wtf they think.

I'm sure there's all sorts of scenarios where internet votes could be hacked but there should be a movement to put the power back in the people's hands. Millions of us together would not allow corruption to go on without an investigation. If our courts allowed them to go free and they were guilty then we would vote and change the laws and vote the assholes that got away with shit out of office. If most of the power were in our hands maybe the common United States citizen would actually give a shit about this country a LOT more than what they currently do and actually try to make a difference and do right because they knew their opinion fucking mattered......

[Dabamf]

I-77, exit 25-28 around Huntersville. After I drive through that shit I want to find the nearest human being and stab them until they no longer have a face.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Cathan

If most of the power were in our hands maybe the common United States citizen would actually give a shit about this country a LOT more than what they currently do and actually try to make a difference and do right because they knew their opinion fucking mattered......

But on the downside, you'd have Southerners spending all their time trying to take rights away from gays, blacks, and women.

Just thought I'd pop by and spice up your thread....

[spronk]

Your describing a democracy, which the US is not. The founding fathers explicity chose not to make the United States a democracy, and instead a republic, where the government operates under a constitution, has elected representatives, and essentially follows the rule of law. By contrast a democracy is more or less mob rules - the majority is always right.

The problem with "true" democracy is that eventually voters only vote for candidates or rules that benefit them at the expense of the government treasury, and eventually the fiscal system collapses.

Thats why tax raises are rarely sent off as initiatives, because they always lose - Florida or Nevada have huge retirement communities, measures to raise money for schools or police almost always fail.

The republic system is pretty flawed, as politicans have become professional and more interested in getting (re)-elected than governing, retarded election processes (electoral college), and special interests driving politics.

I really doubt however a direct-vote system would lead to better things, in fact, it would probably lead to some pretty fucked up things like the US becoming a (more?) christian religious nation, most of the 10 amendments being thrown out, and mass emigration by educated professionals.

[Tuco]

Agree with spronk.

We the people are too stupid, selfish, uneducated and don't have enough time to govern ourselves, and need professionals to do it for us.

[Vinen]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Agree with spronk.

We the people are too stupid, selfish, uneducated and don't have enough time to govern ourselves, and need professionals to do it for us.

Yep, and it's not like it's easy for people to find unbiased information either. It's painful, but whenever I read any newspaper I spend more time tearing it apart in my head to bypass the bias. Fuck Fox and the NYT.

[Soriak]

Some US states have initiatives on the state level, which is exactly what you are proposing. Someone starts the initiative and collects signatures, if he can get enough it'll come to the ballot and people can vote on. However, these studies may be mandated by the EPA? If so, no initiative or local politician is going to change that.

I saw a poll a couple days ago where 55% of respondents thought the bible should be used as factual historic text for history classes - so be glad it's that way.

Direct democracies don't have to lead to chaos though - it's working rather well in Switzerland, though some of the initiatives are retarded, it's a fundamental principle of democracy. (Along with the referendum, which prevents passed laws from taking effect) Having such a check on politicians is comforting... no matter how many idiots get elected, they can't do more damage than the voters allow them to. And if we can't pass a referendum on stupid laws or get an initiative through for something necessary, we can't put the blame on politicians.


edit: North Dakota has initiatives - so, now that you have what you asked for, are you going to pursue it?

[Cathan]

I thought a lot about the flaws of "letting" the people govern themselves and I agree the general population could fuck things up pretty bad. I disagree that this country would fly into some religous fanatacism. There are a lot more people here against religion than are for it these days. Hell the Christian denominations alone would probably battle endlessly so it would end there imo... As for the south taking rights away from minorities... I live in the South and I could give a shit less if people are gay and as long as minorities aren't bothering me that's fine. In the end it's the people that cause problems, not the race. If I can think that way after being born and raised her others can too. I still argue the punishments just need to be tailored better to fuck the people that are causing the problems. Afaik there are already gang laws that if you committ a gang related crime it carries a much harsher punishment than if I go out and do the same thing on my own being unaffiliated with a gang.

I guess essentially all I'm really saying through my posts here is the people should have more say in what their government does (maybe just 50/50 split of power) and that politicians should be held accountable while their job is primarily to facilitate what we want and what is truly best for the people.

[Himeo]

Republics are inefficient but very stable. Mob rule sucks if you are a minority. Despotism, Dictatorships, and Communism are the most efficient forms of Government but they never work because the people likely to lead those governments are corrupt as fuck. You need to be corrupt to succeed in the upper echelons of government.

The U.S. has a decent republic. Our problem is that politicians in our country are "professional". Being a politician in the U.S. is an easy way to make money; lots of money. And thus you have the "wrong" people as politicians.

I'm not saying the "right" people would be better. The "right" people are almost un-electable because making responsible choices in government isn't popular. Do the "right thing" in office or "stay" in office is the choice our system gives to politicians. The answer is obvious and exactly why our country is fucked up.

The real problem with our system is that the people we elect decide to stay in office and make money. It's unfortunate that those two things are inseperable. If we could force politicians to serve for free, and bar outside interests from "buying" our representatives... If we could pay for political campaigns with tax-payer money...

If only.

[Zeste]

What we need is a Damnocracy.

[Dintorr]

Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner.

[Ninajrr]

With the heavy integration of the internet into our society, we should be entering in a government based on majority vote.

[Avellon]

Like internet polls?

I vote the emma watson choice.

[Fubuju]

Ron Paul 2008 — Hope for America

[kedwyn]

If you want to solve most of the bullshit with our government they would have mandatory term limits on all political offices and abolish the two party system.

Its the stagnating of ideas and the return to political maneuvering which has soured our political system. Parties are entrenched with life long politicians which are there really for their own benefit and special interest. The common person is a stupid automaton that will vote for the party lines regardless of what the guy does so what incentive does he have to make hard decision and stick his neck out? None.

The average American is a moron, one that gets pissed off and screams about every little thing wrong but does nothing on election day and is too fucking lazy / apathetic to educate themselves aside from a 30 second party advertisement on TV. They don't have time for town meetings, despise politics and blame everyone else for their own lot in life sucking. The people that have debt up the ass and blame the government or whoever is in control of congress because money is tight and they have 20 things in their house on 5 year EZ Payment plans. The average American is mostly ignorant, sticks to party lines blindly, complains about their lot in life, complains about politicians being corrupt and how the system sucks yet can not be counted on to do anything about it. You can run the best independent candidate in the world with the best plan for America and he will fail because most people just don't give a shit. They just like to bitch and moan.

That why we'll be on the brink of bankruptcy/revolt before anything is done about our failing system.



As for a true democracy, fuck no thank you. People already have the idea that they can vote themselves in benefits no point in giving them the power to do it anymore than its already happening.

We need money for education? Ok thats good.

What my taxes are going up? Fuck the schools cut waste.

There is no waste? Bullshit why are we spending X amount on Y program.

Fuck you it doesn't benefit me so cut it.


No thanks.




Best system is something simliar to the one we have now except:


Term Limits - 6 years max then GTFO. Every political office in the US including local.

1st degree felony for any contact of a political figure with special interest groups punished by a minimum of 5 years in prison and a 5 million dollar fine. That will keep them the fuck away from eachother.

Force the electoral college slates to vote their electoral votes along the popular vote lines regardless of pary affiliations. So if an independent wins the popular vote in CA he gets the votes regardless of the slate of electors. Fuck them you don't even need them anymore the votes go the guy that wins the popular vote. Small states still are important, that why there is an electoral college but now its becomes possible for a third or fourth party to campaign without having to get the traditional nominations.

Anyone, regardless of party affiliations should be able to vote in any primary.

No party designation is allowed on any ballot. Candidate can specify what they stand for on a index card without mention to the party line. This way people need to vote for the ideas not the party guy.

No party designation or campaigning allowed within 1,000 feet of polling center. No reporters allowed to speak with voters until after they vote.




In 10 years most of our poblems would be a hell of a lot closer to being solved than they are now.