Take That Scientology!

[Scientologist]

Hey guys what's going on in this thread?

[Occido]

Originally Posted by Neferata

Ah yes, the last "argument" of the religious when they can't actually debate the topic with facts.

All bullshit aside and hard feelings or whatever, when it comes right down to it. There is no debate or argument.
You rather believe or you don't. The thing that irritates me the most about religious debates is that it's never a debate.

The way it should be in my opinion is...

Mr. A believes a in a god and Mr. B doesn't. Neither one of them are "wrong" and it should just stop there.
Religion is one of the two things that is a complete waste of time to argue about. Politics being the second.

There's plenty of facts out there to "discuss" but again it's pointless. What is fact to one man is bullshit to another, making the debate void and a waste of time. Which then leads into "There is a God and you're wrong for thinking otherwise!!" or "There is no God and you're a dumb fuck for thinking so".

Yes, I'm LDS and have been since I was 14. Didn't want anything to do with religion AT ALL till I was 21. For whatever reason I decided to study religion then, for years to follow I studied all sorts of religions. Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, LDS (yes I had to study my own religion cuz I knew nothing about it), 4 Square (Baptist branch off), Episcopalian (Episcopal- spells Pepsi Cola btw) and several others.
Out of all of them and after years of cross-referencing and reading... for me personally LDS made the most sense out of all of them.

What did it for me? A passage in Timothy in the Bible that says ALL things must be restored and will be lead by prophets and apostles and teachers and evangelists, etc etc. That was just what did it for me, everything else just made sense.
I see it for me.. more like a C.Y.A. (cover your ass).
If there is a God, I'm right and I lose nothing. If I'm wrong and there isn't a God I lose nothing.
If you're right and there isn't a God, you lose nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God.. you lose everything. That's how I see it anyway.

I know a lot of people on this board are atheist or anti-religion or whatever and yell and scream "YOU'RE IN A CULT! DIE IN A FIRE FAG!" or some stupid shit but I really don't give a rats ass. There's absolutely nothing anyone can say that I haven't already heard and dealt with with people face to face.. in person.

Anyway, you rather believe or you don't and I'm not talking about LDS I'm talking about religion in general here. If you do believe..great... if not, fine. Why people feel the need to take it further than that is just retarded. It's a never-ending debate that will never be won by either side.

No religion is perfect, and all have faults or things people don't agree with at one point or another. LDS and plural wives, Catholics and their Crusades, JW's and their Dodger Stadium. I think people focus too much on the bad instead of what they gain from it. A religion could be 95% good but most folks will focus on that 5% bad and make it out to be much worse than it is.

Anyway, I'm done rambling. Sorry for the long wall O' text.

[Believe]

Originally Posted by Occido

I see it for me.. more like a C.Y.A. (cover your ass).
If there is a God, I'm right and I lose nothing. If I'm wrong and there isn't a God I lose nothing.
If you're right and there isn't a God, you lose nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God.. you lose everything. That's how I see it anyway.

Doesn't that make you kind of a 'phony' Christian? Not going to claim I know the answer, but I would assume god would know whether you really truly believed, or whether you believed just to cover your ass.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of Christians fall under that category, though.

[Mario Speedwagon]

Not to mention the utter retardation inherent in that line of logic. Pascal's wager is really what got you? Fuck man.



And it got you to be a mormon? A fucking mormon? Christ.

[Aamina]

Pearls before swine.

[Tortfeasor]

Originally Posted by Occido

I see it for me.. more like a C.Y.A. (cover your ass).
If there is a God, I'm right and I lose nothing. If I'm wrong and there isn't a God I lose nothing.
If you're right and there isn't a God, you lose nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God.. you lose everything. That's how I see it anyway.

I am pretty sure Mormons believe that going to heaven requires faith in Jesus and doing good to their fellow men along in addition to the sacraments. Its kinda silly to base your wager solely on party affiliation. It would make more sense to do that with Catholicism, which doesn't require you to do that much. Or even born again Christians; those dudes don't have to do anything to be saved other than say "yeah, I'm in. word."

[chaos]

That is an incredibly juvenile line of logic.

[Suineg]

Originally Posted by Tortfeasor

I am pretty sure Mormons believe that going to heaven requires faith in Jesus and doing good to their fellow men along in addition to the sacraments. Its kinda silly to base your wager solely on party affiliation. It would make more sense to do that with Catholicism, which doesn't require you to do that much. Or even born again Christians; those dudes don't have to do anything to be saved other than say "yeah, I'm in. word."

Actually you kinda have that all wrong.

LDS everyone is going to some kind of heaven except special bad guys just what level.

Catholicism there are a ton of rules for if you go.

I won't say we Christians are that weak but yeah the basic concept. It's sort of a chicken or the egg thing with us. Someone who claims to be a Christian and yet acts the complete opposite do they really believe in it so are they really a Christian? I don't feel the CYA version of Christianity is viable.

[Occido]

I believe there's a God.. took me many years to figure it out, but I do believe. The CYA comes into play with discussions such as this one. I'm not your "cookie cutter" mormon. I have no problem with using language, watching R-rated movies or sex before marriage. I'm guilty for all of it and much more. Doesn't mean I don't believe any less.

Maybe CYA was a bad example. I don't fear God or death I came to terms a long time ago that if I die and I'm judged and put somewhere then so be it.

What it comes down to is why care who's what? Mormon..so what.. why do so many people care, why do some religions openly attack the church in their meetings and in the open. Why care?
The LDS church is probably the one church that is openly attacked and protested the most and the loudest. Has been for 200+ years and mostly by people who have very little or no knowledge what-so-ever about the church save what their preacher has told them from his own opinions.

I remember sitting in a Four Square Baptist church during one of their meetings. The meeting went two hours long and the ONLY thing the pastor talked about was how evil the mormons are, that they're all wrong and are demons and going to hell. I was blown away, an entire meeting on how another religion is wrong and why you shouldn't be friends with mormons and a ton of other stupid shit. When really everything this guy was saying was wrong. He didn't say even 1 fact about the mormon church every single thing he said was false and made up anti bullshit. I found it to be quite amusing.

It was actually all the hatred and anti-mormon shit that made me want to study the religion in the first place. Figured if so many people are scared of the LDS crowd that so many would waste their time protesting outside of their buildings and proslyte around town teaching against it.. in some cases even kill mormons (mainly back in the day, not so much today) that they're teaching something that has people worried.

but really...Why care that someone is Christian and believes, whether they're Catholic or Buhddist or LDS. Why care that someone doesn't believe in a god or a higher power?
The religious "debate" I guess you can call it is very similar to the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 debate. People hell bent for leather that say the PS3 is the best and then those who swear on their life that the 360 is the god of consoles.

Who really gives a shit. Honestly.

[Zerai]

If you believe in god and are a shitty person, and you get into heaven over someone who doesn't believe but is a good person...your god is a dick, so why would you want to go there in the first place.

[Occido]

Originally Posted by Zerai

If you believe in god and are a shitty person, and you get into heaven over someone who doesn't believe but is a good person...your god is a dick, so why would you want to go there in the first place.

Well, that's a whole lesson that's taught but I'm not going to "preach" it here. So I'll give you the quick version.

2nd coming.. Christ is here doing his godly thing probably DJing for the crowd, people enjoying their 1000 years of peace. During this time those who don't believe well be giving the chance to believe and learn.

If I believe and haven't repented for being a dick, I'll go to the same place the guy who decided he still doesn't believe. Everyone's given a chance.

Though it says that even when Christ returns and people can actually SEE HIM that 50+% of the world's population at that time will still deny him.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Occido

Well, that's a whole lesson that's taught but I'm not going to "preach" it here. So I'll give you the quick version.

2nd coming.. Christ is here doing his godly thing probably DJing for the crowd, people enjoying their 1000 years of peace. During this time those who don't believe well be giving the chance to believe and learn.

If I believe and haven't repented for being a dick, I'll go to the same place the guy who decided he still doesn't believe. Everyone's given a chance.

Though it says that even when Christ returns and people can actually SEE HIM that 50+% of the world's population at that time will still deny him.

That's still being a dick. Especially for someone omniscient.

As for the last figure, I'd say 90%+. Think about it. Some guy saying he's christ? Right. So is the last 50000 people that tried that before you...

but really...Why care that someone is Christian and believes, whether they're Catholic or Buhddist or LDS. Why care that someone doesn't believe in a god or a higher power?
The religious "debate" I guess you can call it is very similar to the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 debate. People hell bent for leather that say the PS3 is the best and then those who swear on their life that the 360 is the god of consoles.

Really, I don't think most people care...if everyone just kept it to themselves. Even if it was just debates (See console wars) that's still not a big issue.

Why people care is because not only do people want to push their beliefs..they want to legislate it. Religion has enough followers they can change public policy based on their beliefs. That's why people care. It'd be like 360 fanboys reaching a large enough % that they ban PS3s. I only own a 360 but I'd still say it's retarded.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Occido

If there is a God, I'm right and I lose nothing. If I'm wrong and there isn't a God I lose nothing.
If you're right and there isn't a God, you lose nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God.. you lose everything. That's how I see it anyway.

This isn't faith, it's fear and opportunism. You really think if your god exists and you get up there with that attitude he won't see right through you?

edit: Also, "it says in the Bible" is a crappy justification. You're using a single source as evidence of itself. Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Occido]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

This isn't faith, it's fear and opportunism. You really think if your god exists and you get up there with that attitude he won't see right through you?

My honest answer. I don't care if he does.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by Occido

My honest answer. I don't care if he does.

But shouldn't you care? Isn't the entire point to be a genuinely good person, and not merely a good person on paper? If God doesn't care about that distinction, then won't it let the unrepentant into heaven?