Ron Paul, does he stand a chance?

[Gilgamel]

I actually like Paul aside from his stance on the war, but he never had a chance. I just do not understand after all the time and money and lives we've invested over there that now that we have a guy who is universally lauded for doing a great job and is clearly making progress that anyone would be willing to cut him off at the knees and let the place go completely down the drain. What the fuck do the democrats think is going to happen in Iraq if we leave it a failed state?

[Sunder]

Iraq is not worth one more American life. The lives that have been lost already were lost in vain. The war was a complete unnecessary fuck-up from the beginning. Business has a word for this: throwing good money after bad. Only this time, it's American Service men and women's lives. Let Iraq fall completely apart. Much larger, much stronger, much more powerful nations that actually HAD weapons of mass destruction have broken down in the past. (USSR)

All this doom and gloom fear-mongering is what got us in this position to begin with. The mere fact conservatives are still riding this DOOMtrain is completely laughable.

[Gilgamel]

Do you really think bailing on Iraq at this point and letting it degenerate into another fucked up middle eastern country is going to have no impact on us in America? If you do you truly are crazy.

[Sunder]

What impact are you talking about? Wouldn't be oil would it?

[chaos]

More like it will be yet another reasonfor young Muslim men to hate America, yet another recruiting line for terrorist organizations, or just anti-American organizations in general. It will further erode our credibility with the free nations of the world, and further destroy any credibility we might have had with the people in nations who may be looking for help from an oppressive regime. Our foreign policy fucked, our credibility destroyed, basically we look like fucking asshats.

[Drant]

Originally Posted by chaos

More like it will be yet another reasonfor young Muslim men to hate America, yet another recruiting line for terrorist organizations, or just anti-American organizations in general. It will further erode our credibility with the free nations of the world, and further destroy any credibility we might have had with the people in nations who may be looking for help from an oppressive regime. Our foreign policy fucked, our credibility destroyed, basically we look like fucking asshats.

Well then we're fucked if we do and fucked if we don't. The same argument you just gave can be used if we stay.

If we stay it will give antoher recruiting line for terrorist organizations. Continuing to throw money and lives at this problem will erode our credibility with the free nations of the world. ect. ect. And no matter what, your last line is true now.

Our foreign policy fucked, our credibility destroyed, basically we look like fucking asshats

[Sunder]

All that has already happened. Or did you miss the last 4 years?

You know what will happen if we pull out of Iraq? It will turn into Darfur, and I don't see very many conservatives screaming that we have to get our troops into there.

We get out now, we allow whatever happens to happen. There is no saving face in this one guys. You sound JUST like the Democrats did in the late '60's when it came to the war in Vietnam. "We can't pull out. Communism will take over the globe. More countries will fall. WE ARE DOOMED!"

Same song, different party. The Incumbent Party Fear-Train: happens every election and this one is right on time.

Edit: response to conservative fearmongerers.

[darksensei]

Oh you mean having American troops in Iraq hasn't done wonders for their recruiting, or making Arabs hate America even more? How about accepting torture as American policy, I'm sure that hasn't effected our image. Stop buying into their bullshit that leaving Iraq would hurt our image, the people saying that are the ones who already destroyed it.

Edit: in response to chaos

[chaos]

Yeah it has been bad. Yeah, I've been against the war sicne before it started, and I was in the military then, I know all the arguments. The issue is not what happened THEN, it is what do we do RIGHT NOW. Then, Bush lied and the majority of Americans bought it because they were sheep, getting us into a war which we had little chance of actually winning due in large part to the extreme lack of planning on the part of the administration. Things are different now, the surge has shown at least hope for a positive outcome. If theer is hope to draw a positive out of all this horrid shit of the past 5 years then we, as a country, should be behind it. After killing 600k+ Iraqis because the average American in incapable of critical thought I think we'd owe them at least that. And yes it will affect our foreign policy, how could it not? Right now we are the ones who created this mess, and are at least making the appearance of trying to help the situation.

I'm not buying anyone's bullshit, I am a realist. Bitch on all the message boards we want, the troops are not leaving Iraq. Vote for whoever you want, write several angry letters, do you, at the end of the day the troops will still be in Iraq. And Germany. And Korea. And Japan. And Bahrain, and Kuwait, and etc etc. If a politician tells you otherwise, they are pandering.

[Drant]

Originally Posted by chaos

Yeah it has been bad. Yeah, I've been against the war sicne before it started, and I was in the military then, I know all the arguments. The issue is not what happened THEN, it is what do we do RIGHT NOW. Then, Bush lied and the majority of Americans bought it because they were sheep, getting us into a war which we had little chance of actually winning due in large part to the extreme lack of planning on the part of the administration. Things are different now, the surge has shown at least hope for a positive outcome. If theer is hope to draw a positive out of all this horrid shit of the past 5 years then we, as a country, should be behind it. After killing 600k+ Iraqis because the average American in incapable of critical thought I think we'd owe them at least that. And yes it will affect our foreign policy, how could it not? Right now we are the ones who created this mess, and are at least making the appearance of trying to help the situation.

I'm not buying anyone's bullshit, I am a realist. Bitch on all the message boards we want, the troops are not leaving Iraq. Vote for whoever you want, write several angry letters, do you, at the end of the day the troops will still be in Iraq. And Germany. And Korea. And Japan. And Bahrain, and Kuwait, and etc etc. If a politician tells you otherwise, they are pandering.

So you answer to all the killing is more killing? No one is arguing that things will magically return to normal after we leave. What we're saying is that by staying we will continue to incur the wrath of those who do not want us there. Even if Iraq becomes the center of democracy in the middle east as long as we are there we will continue to be a target.

Edit: I forgot to add, the reason why the surge is working isn't because we sent more troops. Troop levels are about the same as they were in the past. They decreased and our govt used political speak and sold us on the thought that a surge of troops back to normal levels would turn the tide. It was around this time that we started paying insurgents $10 a day. THAT is what has stopped the killing.

Edit 2: Just so you don't think I pulled this out of my ass, here is the link where it is talked about. http:////www.npr.org/templates/story...oryId=17899543

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Bush fucked this country (and several others) by going to war in Iraq. This decision will ruin the lives of millions of people. both American and otherwise, for years to come. He now prepares to leave office and it is now the countries problem to clean it up, with no clear path or way to do it. Staying there fucks us, eating lives and money to no clear end. Leaving is simply immoral and would promote chaos in the region the likes of which (as someone mentioned earlier) we see in shitholes in Africa.

Bush fucked us in an amazingly impressive way that many probably never thought possible and is now leaving us to deal with the consequences ('cause he's rich enough nothing matters). I pray there is a special place in hell waiting for G.W..

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

I'll take immoral over a broken country.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

Bush fucked this country (and several others) by going to war in Iraq. This decision will ruin the lives of millions of people. both American and otherwise, for years to come. He now prepares to leave office and it is now the countries problem to clean it up, with no clear path or way to do it. Staying there fucks us, eating lives and money to no clear end. Leaving is simply immoral and would promote chaos in the region the likes of which (as someone mentioned earlier) we see in shitholes in Africa.

Bush fucked us in an amazingly impressive way that many probably never thought possible and is now leaving us to deal with the consequences ('cause he's rich enough nothing matters). I pray there is a special place in hell waiting for G.W..

This is all true. There are no bumper sticker slogan solutions to complex world affairs. Withdrawing from Iraq will not fix the economy and put a turkey in every home and ressurect my dead dog. Staying will not necessarily ensure the freedom of everyone all over the world while lowering gas prices and punishing despots.

The fact is that, like it or not, we will not withdraw from Iraq in the foreseeable future. Even when we do withdraw, we will maintain a significant force there. No amount of not liking it will change that. We can all be negative nancy's and cry all fucking day about it, or try and find the positives in it. And there are positives. Extremism is bad on both sides folks, you have to understand that just because you take the extreme position opposite Bush does not make you right simply because he is wrong. Both things are wrong.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by chaos

This is all true. There are no bumper sticker slogan solutions to complex world affairs. Withdrawing from Iraq will not fix the economy and put a turkey in every home and ressurect my dead dog. Staying will not necessarily ensure the freedom of everyone all over the world while lowering gas prices and punishing despots.

The fact is that, like it or not, we will not withdraw from Iraq in the foreseeable future. Even when we do withdraw, we will maintain a significant force there. No amount of not liking it will change that. We can all be negative nancy's and cry all fucking day about it, or try and find the positives in it. And there are positives. Extremism is bad on both sides folks, you have to understand that just because you take the extreme position opposite Bush does not make you right simply because he is wrong. Both things are wrong.

Exactly, the number of ignorant "leftist" (is that a word?) Americans who think just pulling everyone out is the solution is horrible. On the other side, "rightist" (pretty sure that isn't a word) Americans who think we should move in and that Bush was a genius to get into Iraq in the first place are equally as bad.

[Leto Eu`Acumen]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

Exactly, the number of ignorant "leftist" (is that a word?) Americans who think just pulling everyone out is the solution is horrible. On the other side, "rightist" (pretty sure that isn't a word) Americans who think we should move in and that Bush was a genius to get into Iraq in the first place are equally as bad.

And the Centrists who were silent when all this shit started but now hate the mess but offer no solutions?

Lets not leave anybody out now :P Lets be fair!