Ron Paul, does he stand a chance? - Page 10

rinthea · 05-30-2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

You're way off base. Who the fuck mentioned protectionism? We were talking about where you'd want to direct tax cuts to stimulate the American economy. That has nothing the fuck at all do to with tarriffs and the like.

Huh? We're talking primarily about tax cuts for the middle class. I guess that in conservative-speak, the middle class is code for black welfare queens with 17 kids. Who knew?

I can't believe you missed the points by as much as you did.

You said tax cuts to the ultra rich should not happen due to the fact that they can choose what they want to do with their money. Thats protectionism.

You said your better off propping up the middle and working classes. This is welfare.

No specifics were mentioned, so its easy to misinterpret. That said, yours and soriaks argument that tax cuts to the rich dont stimulate the economy is fallacious. Thats why I mentioned the money market. Ideally, any tax cuts should be flat across income distributions.

voodoochile78 · 05-31-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinthea

You said tax cuts to the ultra rich should not happen due to the fact that they can choose what they want to do with their money. Thats protectionism.

That's not protectionism you fucking retard. Protectionism is regulating trade through tariffs and the like.

Quote:

You said your better off propping up the middle and working classes. This is welfare.

Tax cuts to the middle and working classes isn't welfare you fucking retard.

Sorry for the flaming, but that's the stupidest fucking shit I've heard in a long time. Tax cuts for the middle class is welfare? What the fuck must the world look like through your eyes, Jesus H. Fucking Christ, where a 2-income family with their own house, 2 kids in college, a dog and an SUV counts as motherfucking welfare. Either you're the richest motherfucker on earth to think this lifestyle counts as being on welfare, or you are an utter retard.

I don't even think you know what welfare fucking means. How does reducing the taxes people pay on the positive income they have earned count as welfare? This makes not fucking sense. They're making money. They're in the fucking black, and they're paying taxes on their income. Welfare is for people with ZERO income or income below the poverty line.

Quote:

That said, yours and soriaks argument that tax cuts to the rich dont stimulate the economy is fallacious.

I don't think either of us made that point. This shit isn't even relevant to the discussion, and I'm reluctant to push this tangent forward, but here goes. Tax cuts for the rich does stimulate the economy, BUT, it does not stimulate it as much as tax cuts for the middle and working classes. In both Reagan's case, and George W. Bush's case, tax cuts to the rich provided very little stimulus to the economy while coming with a such a monsterous price tag (the National Debt) that it took ~10 years to clean up Reagan's shit and will probably take at least that long to clean up after Bush's shit.

Clinton raised the top marginal tax rates and cut taxes on the middle class and small businesses, and that provided a bigger stimulus to the economy AND eliminated the deficit and replaced it with a surplus.

Conservatives hate Clinton though, and that is why I am so generous in allowing you to say that at best, the performance of the Reagan and Bush economies compared to the Clinton economy shows that taxing the rich and economic performance are uncorrelated. That's my gift to you, giving you that out from this ridiculous "tricke down" corner you've painted yourselves into.

I've thought about this little tangent a bit, and I'm actually quite glad this unfolded the way it did. You know why? Because this whole "sales tax is fair to everyone, and especially the working class!" rhetoric quickly brings out the supply-siders and shows the "FAIR" tax for what it is - a boon to the rich and a pox on the middle and working classes.

glaucus · 05-31-2007, 01:17 AM

doesnt anyone understand communism is the way. but for real i think someone mentioned it before, in my eyes the swiss have a good system. If you are trying to better everyones life someones going to have to take a hit. the more u help the bigger the hit

rinthea · 05-31-2007, 02:19 AM

lol
If you think of the terms in concepts, rather than dictionary.com definitions you might get it.

The world unfortunately is a lot more complicated than what you paint.

Soriak · 05-31-2007, 03:10 AM

Giving money to the poor is welfare, giving money (in form of tax cuts) to the middle class is welfare, giving money to the richest 1% (in form of tax cuts) is strengthening the economy?

Tax cuts should always be strongly regressive: the less you make, the more you get. (percentage wise, not raw numbers)

Bralkan · 05-31-2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinthea

lol
If you think of the terms in concepts, rather than dictionary.com definitions you might get it.

The world unfortunately is a lot more complicated than what you paint.

and stretching economic definitions to the point they lose their meaning is contrary to the fucking point of economics.

Lusiphur · 05-31-2007, 06:20 AM

Has anyone noticed that the most rabid Vanbois (viz rinthea, Tad10 etc) post utter drivel in in the non MMO threads (go see Tad's ramblings in the Atheist thread) ?

A bit off topic but I found it interesting

Although tax cuts for the middle class = welfare is just lol. I think that is the most retarded thing I have seen posted for a while.

Kiroy · 05-31-2007, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusiphur

Has anyone noticed that the most rabid Vanbois (viz rinthea, Tad10 etc) post utter drivel in in the non MMO threads (go see Tad's ramblings in the Atheist thread) ?

It's just the nature of the person. Everyone gets argumentative once in a while, but most people move on after work hours end... hehe.

chaos · 05-31-2007, 08:21 AM

Yeah, it's fun to talk while at work and stuff. But seriously, tax cuts for the middle class = welfare, tax cuts for the rich elite = economy stimulus! If that isn't the best goddamn example of brainwashing I've ever seen. And dude really believes that too, he isn't saying it to be more popular or something.

Kiroy · 05-31-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

Yeah, it's fun to talk while at work and stuff. But seriously, tax cuts for the middle class = welfare, tax cuts for the rich elite = economy stimulus! If that isn't the best goddamn example of brainwashing I've ever seen. And dude really believes that too, he isn't saying it to be more popular or something.

Tax cuts for all if you ask me. Tax cuts for poor = more spending, tax cuts for rich = more investing.

Soriak · 05-31-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiroy

Tax cuts for all if you ask me. Tax cuts for poor = more spending, tax cuts for rich = more investing.

Two issues with that:

1. The government will have much less revenue, which either means less spending (cutting governmental jobs and expenses through contracts with private companies), which is going to have repercussions now, or more debt, which, like for individuals, is always an option but rarely a good one.

2. Cutting taxes across the spectrum is like printing more money - an expansive monetary policy, which is going to raise inflation and thus while everyone would have more money, they'd effectively have the same or less as things get more expensive. Now if the tax cut isn't permanent, that'll catch up with people: things will be more expensive effectively, leading to a decrease in consumption and it may even lead to a recession. The only way to prevent that is to keep the expansive policy going with keeping taxes the same or even reducing them further, a vicious cycle.

Not to mention anyone who owns US debt will be very pissed when the worth of the debt declines and may cause people to lose faith in the dollar. With the Euro, there's now a serious alternative.

Fiscal policy is a VERY difficult and complex issue and needs to be entirely disconnected from politics. imo in a perfect world, politicians would have no say when it comes to taxes - it's bound to be abused to gain votes or appease supporters, when really its only purpose should be maximum prosperity and stability.

chaos · 05-31-2007, 08:58 AM

Eh I'm more socialist than most, imo if you make a million dollars a year, then you can fuck off with your government benefits, while at the same time railing against welfare. But I also believe other crazy stuff, like every citizen should have access to the same health care, or that the current distribution of wealth is a bad thing for society as a whole, or that a foreign policy which assumes every other nation is inferior to you is a bad thing. I got more, I'm wild.

Soriak · 05-31-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

I got more, I'm wild.

You're a fucking lunatic... next thing you're going to say is that everyone should be eligible to vote.

chaos · 05-31-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soriak

You're a fucking lunatic... next thing you're going to say is that everyone should be eligible to vote.

EVEN WOMEN AND COLOREDS

Soriak · 05-31-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

EVEN WOMEN AND COLOREDS

I was aiming for "even convicts!" but that works too

05-31-2007, 01:17 AM	#138 (permalink)
glaucus Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: iowa Posts: 34 -1 Internets	doesnt anyone understand communism is the way. but for real i think someone mentioned it before, in my eyes the swiss have a good system. If you are trying to better everyones life someones going to have to take a hit. the more u help the bigger the hit __________________ "Basically... You can fuck off." my girlfriend

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05-31-2007, 02:19 AM	#139 (permalink)
rinthea omghax Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,135 -48 Internets	lol If you think of the terms in concepts, rather than dictionary.com definitions you might get it. The world unfortunately is a lot more complicated than what you paint.

05-31-2007, 03:10 AM	#140 (permalink)
Soriak Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 5,830 +54 Internets	Giving money to the poor is welfare, giving money (in form of tax cuts) to the middle class is welfare, giving money to the richest 1% (in form of tax cuts) is strengthening the economy? Tax cuts should always be strongly regressive: the less you make, the more you get. (percentage wise, not raw numbers)

05-31-2007, 06:20 AM	#142 (permalink)
Lusiphur Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bonny Scotland Posts: 602 -4 Internets	Has anyone noticed that the most rabid Vanbois (viz rinthea, Tad10 etc) post utter drivel in in the non MMO threads (go see Tad's ramblings in the Atheist thread) ? A bit off topic but I found it interesting Although tax cuts for the middle class = welfare is just lol. I think that is the most retarded thing I have seen posted for a while.

05-31-2007, 08:21 AM	#144 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	Yeah, it's fun to talk while at work and stuff. But seriously, tax cuts for the middle class = welfare, tax cuts for the rich elite = economy stimulus! If that isn't the best goddamn example of brainwashing I've ever seen. And dude really believes that too, he isn't saying it to be more popular or something.

05-31-2007, 08:58 AM	#147 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	Eh I'm more socialist than most, imo if you make a million dollars a year, then you can fuck off with your government benefits, while at the same time railing against welfare. But I also believe other crazy stuff, like every citizen should have access to the same health care, or that the current distribution of wealth is a bad thing for society as a whole, or that a foreign policy which assumes every other nation is inferior to you is a bad thing. I got more, I'm wild.