Airforce Academy pushing religion in the news...

[Cathan]

I just saw somethin on the news about some organization, guessing ACLU, is bringing suit against the airforce academy for pushing evangelical christianity. My first thought was you can't sue the government or the military tmk. Once you enlist you're subject to the UCMJ and not to civilian or federal law unless you break that. If you're in the military and you commit a crime out in town you have to face court in that community and a separate "trial" in the military. Military "trials" range from going to see the "old man" (CO) to a general courtmartial.

Anyway when I thought about it a second later it seemed like a grey area in suing the airforce academy since those students likely aren't airforce personnel, all of them anyway.

The other thing the news said that interested me is that airforce recruiters have been using Jesus Christ to recruit. That just seems inherently wrong. I can only imagine how hard it is to get ANYONE to join the military right now but I doubt many airforce personnel are even in the middle east right now. I think it's mostly army and Marine Corps that are stationed there right now.

Anyone know more about suing the military or one of its academies? I think most of the influence on the military comes from protesting to senators who start talking to the generals...

[TheGoat]

This is America, you can sue whoever the fuck you want.

[Algrinon]

Originally Posted by TheGoat

This is America, you can sue whoever the fuck you want.

No, no you cannot sue who you want. Especially if you are in the military. People can sue on your behalf, however.

This is nothing new at the Air Force Academy. It has really been bad with the sex scandals and drug scandals going on there. It is sad really to see a military academy having those kinds of problems.

That said. This is nothing more than the ACLU and their Athiest friends pissed off because God is involved in zoomie lives. They can go polute Yale, Harvard, and Berkly, leave the academies alone.

[TheGoat]

Originally Posted by Algrinon

No, no you cannot sue who you want. Especially if you are in the military. People can sue on your behalf, however.

Wow really?

Army captain is reactivated after services & sues the government for violation of due process.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct23.html

Massachusetts National Guard files class-action lawsuit
http://csmonitor.com/2006/0201/p03s02-usmi.html

Airman wins court battle to clear personnel record
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/269.html



Grats 5 minutes on Google

[Algrinon]

Originally Posted by TheGoat

Wow really?

Army captain is reactivated after services & sues the government for violation of due process.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct23.html

Massachusetts National Guard files class-action lawsuit
http://csmonitor.com/2006/0201/p03s02-usmi.html

Airman wins court battle to clear personnel record
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/269.html



Grats 5 minutes on Google

Yes really! Sure, you can sue, but ultimately you end up getting the shaft. Lets look at each one of these stories. Because as usually, people throw a bunch of crap on the wall and hope something sticks.

The first story about the Army Captain is funny. They teach you in Basic Officer Training that even after you seperate or retire, you can always be retained by the military. An example? I will retire at age 38 as a Maj or age 40 as a Lt Col. I can be happy at 50 and the Air Force can comeback and say that they need me, and I am forced to go. It is in the contract he signed. So, he is fucked.

The second story may be your best case for having something stick as it pertains to part time soldiers. They still fall under the UCMJ but they also fall under civillian rules when not active duty. Their main job is not the military except for 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year. I think it is screwed up that they got orders w/o per diem. I go overseas and I buy all sorts of personal equipment. I buy it because it makes my life better. Honestly, I can see this case being thrown out. Will have to wait and see. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time =/

I cannot comment on the third one because I wonder if he is still on active duty. It is almost like the first guy. While I think it is cool that he has strong beliefs, we realize that we may not always get to practice them like we would want to. IE, I don't think the Army is going to take a training time out so a muslim can turn to the east and pray while in the middle of a fire fight. Same principle. This guy wants special treatment. I wonder if he could stand duty on a Sunday? I do.

[TheGoat]

Originally Posted by Algrinon

Yes really! Sure, you can sue, but ultimately you end up getting the shaft. Lets look at each one of these stories. Because as usually, people throw a bunch of crap on the wall and hope something sticks.

Okay, I win. I said you can sue anyone you want, you said people in the military can't sue, I proved that people in the military have had standing to sue, and you say, "Sure, you can sue...". I'm sure you noted that I never said anything about winning suits.

The first story about the Army Captain is funny. They teach you in Basic Officer Training that even after you seperate or retire, you can always be retained by the military. An example? I will retire at age 38 as a Maj or age 40 as a Lt Col. I can be happy at 50 and the Air Force can comeback and say that they need me, and I am forced to go. It is in the contract he signed. So, he is fucked.

Haha, this owns. The Army discharged him after the court granted a temporary stay from his deployment while the Army "investigated" his case. I win again!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/05/soldier.deployment/

The second story may be your best case for having something stick as it pertains to part time soldiers. They still fall under the UCMJ but they also fall under civillian rules when not active duty. Their main job is not the military except for 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year. I think it is screwed up that they got orders w/o per diem. I go overseas and I buy all sorts of personal equipment. I buy it because it makes my life better. Honestly, I can see this case being thrown out. Will have to wait and see. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time =/

I think it's a testament to how fucked up our military is, that there have been endless stories from Iraq about soldiers not being outfitted properly to do their jobs and having to dip into their own pockets to cover the gear they need. The DOD only steps in and says they'll pay when some news organization runs an expose about about how the military is failing to meet their obligation to outfit their soldiers.

Anyways, these guys will win, don't worry. Because once it's in the court of public opinion, it's all over for the DOD. =]

I cannot comment on the third one because I wonder if he is still on active duty. It is almost like the first guy. While I think it is cool that he has strong beliefs, we realize that we may not always get to practice them like we would want to. IE, I don't think the Army is going to take a training time out so a muslim can turn to the east and pray while in the middle of a fire fight. Same principle. This guy wants special treatment. I wonder if he could stand duty on a Sunday? I do.

It doesn't matter if he's still on active duty, he //was// on active duty when he filed his lawsuit, and was //still// on active duty when he won, which furthers my claim that people in the military can have standing to sue the military.

The fact that servicemen have won their suits is a further testament to the veracity of my claim.

[James]

Ok, ignoring the completely fucking dumb "WHO CAN TEH MEMBARS SUE!?1/" argument, why is it a bad thing Christianity is encouraged in the Air Force Academy? I can assure you they do not discriminate based on your religious preference...well, except in basic where they will call you out on whatever the fuck they feel like. The military wants its members to be religious, doesn't matter which kind of religion, and Christianity is probably the easiest religion to convert to.

And you know what, fuck the ACLU. Those dumb motherfuckers wouldn't lift a fucking finger to defend their country if we were being invaded, IT MIGHT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS THE INVADERS HAVE AS HUMAN BEINGS TO PURSUE THEIR HAPPINESS VIA MEANS OF CONQUEST AND WHO ARE WE TO TELL THEM THEY CAN'T?!

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by James

The military wants its members to be religious, doesn't matter which kind of religion, and Christianity is probably the easiest religion to convert to.

Why would the military want to encourage religion, much less Christianity? What if the soldiers started misinterpreting things like "Thou shalt not kill" in crazy ways like, we aren't supposed to kill other people?

(This is the part where some right wing Christian tells me that the bible commands you not to "commit murder" which means killing is ok as long as it is a "lawful" killing!)

[TheGoat]

Originally Posted by James

Ok, ignoring the completely fucking dumb "WHO CAN TEH MEMBARS SUE!?1/" argument, why is it a bad thing Christianity is encouraged in the Air Force Academy? I can assure you they do not discriminate based on your religious preference...well, except in basic where they will call you out on whatever the fuck they feel like. The military wants its members to be religious, doesn't matter which kind of religion, and Christianity is probably the easiest religion to convert to.

The whole Separation of Church & State clause in the Constitution is why it's a bad thing that Christianity is encouraged in the Air Force Academy.

It's pretty funny that you say the military doesn't care whaht kind of religion its members follow. I guess you were too busy eating chitlins and pigs' feet with your head in the sand when the Army Chaplain was detained at Guantanamo Bay because he was.... Muslim.

[Cathan]

Originally Posted by TheGoat

I think it's a testament to how fucked up our military is, that there have been endless stories from Iraq about soldiers not being outfitted properly to do their jobs and having to dip into their own pockets to cover the gear they need. The DOD only steps in and says they'll pay when some news organization runs an expose about about how the military is failing to meet their obligation to outfit their soldiers.

.

I'll argue one point with you. With a republican in office, and this is just typical of which party holds the office, the military gets more money for equipment and salaries and training. If we had a democrat in office our boys would probably be even more poorly equipped. That being said we are still the best equipped military nation in the world tmk. Many people argue there is no point in upgrading our jets anymore since the Russians aren't competing with us. What we have pwnz everyone else out there in the world. From experience though, the CH-46E's need to fukn go... Them bitches are old as hell and need an upgrade. I wonder how the Ospray program is going now though. It was like a helicoptor/plane hybrid with wings that folded down with huge props. Woe is you if the wings don't fold back like they're supposed to... Better hope that hydraulics guy wasn't a boot lol.

[James]

Originally Posted by TheGoat

The whole Separation of Church & State clause in the Constitution is why it's a bad thing that Christianity is encouraged in the Air Force Academy.

Oh blow me, the Military has almost nothing to do with that.

Why would the military want to encourage religion, much less Christianity? What if the soldiers started misinterpreting things like "Thou shalt not kill" in crazy ways like, we aren't supposed to kill other people?

Because that's what the military does. I don't know why, I don't even care why. Maybe it's easier on the service members to think there's a higher power out there that they will go to for serving their country honorably. Maybe it's to instill the fear of God into them so they know they always have SOMEONE to answer to and thus won't go doing shithead things like raping women. I know what it was like when I was in the Air Force, and about 99% of every E-5 and above were active church goers, or whatever they do for their religion. In fact, I can only recall one off the top of my head that I knew that didn't care for religion.

The bottom line is tradition is a very strong aspect of the military life, and pushing religion onto servicemembers is a tradition that goes back thousands of years.

[Bralkan]

Pushing religion is one thing. Pushing a specific religion is another.

Almost all our forefathers lamented against "hardcore" Christianity, as well as any other mode of fundamental thinking (self-righteous philosophers, hindoos [sic], and others - paraphrased from John Adams).

Being a civic republican you can see the utility of religion, that however does not mean you are pious in any one religion. (essentially, the mass is too dumb to find morals on their own. They need a higher power of some kind to "give" them morality).

to reiterate - religion is ok, a specific religion is another matter. This country was not found on the idea of Christianity with a capital C. Sure, things that happen to be in Christianity and many other religions made it in our laws. But our forefathers were more interested in the public receiving morality some how some way, as long as they got it: Hence the freckled endorsement of Christianity. If you ever read primary source documents from the forefathers, you can see their true intent. Most of our forefathers were not pious people, (to beat a dead horse) they saw the utility in religion.

[Ashes Emberblade]

Originally Posted by TheGoat

This is America, you can sue whoever the fuck you want.

You can't sue government run medical facilities for malpractice.

[Eomer]

For those who don't have a problem with them pushing Christianity (and specifically protestant/baptist faiths, from my understanding), would you also not have a problem if instead it was Islam? How about Hinduism? Shinto? Buddhism? That one would be hilarious, actually. Maybe some Judaism? Wicca?

The hypocracy and irony in some of the comments here are outright comical.

[James]

You missed the point entirely, Eomer.