Interesting Legal Question.

[Aulirophile]

I know this question, or a form of this question, has been endlessly debated on this site, though not usually in this forum. The question being: "Is it legal to sell digital items in someone else's game?" The answer seems to be there is no law governing said transfers so it would be up to a court to decide.

For a while now I've been selling items on a site I joined two years ago, www.gaiaonline.com. Yes, it is as gay as it looks. People dress up their avatars in pretty clothes. That about sums it up, actually. There's a bank and you can trade items between characters and such.

Now, in June 2003 Gaia started allowing people to "donate" to the site. In exchange for each $2.50 donation you gave, you got a "Donation Letter" put into your account. You can open the Letter for a limited item. Angelic Halo, Grizzly Bear Hat, DJ Studio Headphones, etc., it was different every month and each Letter and Item is a one time only deal, only for that month. Which seems an awful lot like buying to me and if you buy something you should have rights to it, but I digress.

Just recently I got banned from the site. I'd sold a fair amount, enough to be financially comfortable for a while, but at $20 per 100k gold (current market price) I had around 50-60 grand left to go through. I wouldn't mind getting that back, particularly, and finally settling the question above.

The question is, what would be the best legal avenue? Suing them for the value of the items they have denied my access to? Bear in mind I, or someone, "bought" these items by "donating" to the site. Or something else?

I may not do it at all, of course. But hey, everyone needs a hobby. Researching the law around this well enough to put together a good case might be fun. Besides, the admins of the site live in California and if I filed it'd mean they have to come out here to go to court. Since I think they're a bunch of retards, and I know people who used to talk to them personally so that's not just hearsay, I'd find that sort of amusing.

[Hateyou]

I'm not going to read through thier EULA because frankly I don't give a fuck. In most cases I'd say you're probably screwed because hey, it is thier game. No offense (or take offense, whatever) but I hope you don't get anything back. People like you tend to ruin these games.

[Zaniel]

No, they own the servers, the code, the data and basically everything else. What do you own? Nada, you're just paying them for a service and using any of their stuff against a EULA is just unauthorised manipulation of their digital intellectual property. Too bad, until major changes in digital law occur in ... oh maybe 30 years time ... you're shit out of luck in a real court.

No MMO group is going to bother to sue you for doing it but they'll sure cream your ass in front of a judge if you actually bring the case forward.

Maybe try Judge Judy, at least that way you'll get on TV

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Zaniel

No, they own the servers, the code, the data and basically everything else. What do you own? Nada, you're just paying them for a service and using any of their stuff against a EULA is just unauthorised manipulation of their digital intellectual property. Too bad, until major changes in digital law occur in ... oh maybe 30 years time ... you're shit out of luck in a real court.

No MMO group is going to bother to sue you for doing it but they'll sure cream your ass in front of a judge if you actually bring the case forward.

Maybe try Judge Judy, at least that way you'll get on TV

They don't have a EULA, just a ToS. Not paying them for a service, it's a free forum. What I paid them for or "donated" as they put it, is a particular item.

And HateYou, it's a forum where people play dress-up. I sold some items so people could play dress up with other items, generally rarer items, I fail to see how that ruins the game when, in this case, there isn't a game.

[sarinrathe]

I'm confused: you had 50-60 dollars worth of stuff that you couldn't sell? or 50-60 thousand dollars? If its the latter, wow, thats pretty hefty for a bunch of nerds playing digital dollhouse. If its the former - you'll blow through that in a half-hour phone call with your lawyer.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by sarinrathe

I'm confused: you had 50-60 dollars worth of stuff that you couldn't sell? or 50-60 thousand dollars? If its the latter, wow, thats pretty hefty for a bunch of nerds playing digital dollhouse. If its the former - you'll blow through that in a half-hour phone call with your lawyer.

$50,000-60,000 left to sell. My inventory is/was worth several hundred million gold and 100k gold is worth $20.

And yes, considering it's a bunch of people playing digital dollhouse it's a rather impressive sum.

[Saediien]

If you want to file a lawsuit, you need a lawyer. If you can't afford to pay one by the hour ($200/hour would be standard for a decent sophisticated commercial litigator), maybe someone would take the case on a contingent fee. That sounds like a bad idea to me, because your damages are pretty limited as well as speculative and there would be a lot of heavy lifting to litigate your case in the first place. Also, who would you sue and how would you collect the judgment if you win?

If you can't hire a lawyer, maybe some public interest firm would be interested in you as a test case. That's unlikely. However, maybe you could try talking to the Electronic Frontier Foundation etc. etc. and places like it to see if they are interested.

[sarinrathe]

You have to factor in supply / demand though. When you talk about monetary value, it only worth as much as people are willing to pay. Sure, that's your estimate at "current exchange rate" which is directly tied to the supply and demand. That being said, its dubious you could ever get $50-60K by dumping your inventory on eBay.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by sarinrathe

You have to factor in supply / demand though. When you talk about monetary value, it only worth as much as people are willing to pay. Sure, that's your estimate at "current exchange rate" which is directly tied to the supply and demand. That being said, its dubious you could ever get $50-60K by dumping your inventory on eBay.

No, not it's not. I was selling on eBay for the last month. I was getting $20 per 100k or more. I made several thousand dollars at that price, so very little speculation about it.

Originally Posted by Saediien

If you want to file a lawsuit, you need a lawyer. If you can't afford to pay one by the hour ($200/hour would be standard for a decent sophisticated commercial litigator), maybe someone would take the case on a contingent fee. That sounds like a bad idea to me, because your damages are pretty limited as well as speculative and there would be a lot of heavy lifting to litigate your case in the first place. Also, who would you sue and how would you collect the judgment if you win?

If you can't hire a lawyer, maybe some public interest firm would be interested in you as a test case. That's unlikely. However, maybe you could try talking to the Electronic Frontier Foundation etc. etc. and places like it to see if they are interested.

I don't see why I need a lawyer, plenty of people file lawsuits without one. Robert Hughes, for instance. Prefers to go by "Van." Friend of my Mom. It'd be an interesting legal education to do it myself.

I'd sue the admins of the site, of course. They are preventing me from accessing things that I have a monetary right to.

I'll look up the Frontier Foundation. Thank you for the tip.

[Cathan]

Yall are callin it digital dressup but if you cut questing and killing and tradeskilling out of eq aren't you just getting together with your friends and playing dressup with your characters also? In a sense you're just as gay as he is for being a lewt whore!