ID vs Evolution discussion help~

[Samus Aran]

This is related to that other thread, but I felt a new thread was needed.

Basically, my friends and I got to discussing evolution, and my friends apparently are the type that believe the earth is 6000 years old. Arguing with them is pointless, because they'll just say the bible has never been wrong, there is no evidence of evolution (even after I pointed out there was), etc..

So basically I'm asking if you guys can give me any good articles I could print off and show these guys? Anything ranging from big bang theory to formation of stars/planets to evolution. Any help would be great.

edit: and is it true that carbon dating has been proven ineffective or was that just some bs thrown around by christian scientists out to debunk evolution?

[titan_atlas]

First and foremost if you think you are going to convince someone with that much faith of something else you are deluding yourself. Listen science isn't perfect but the proof and facts it has are pretty heavy. Carbon dating is very effective the problem is it has a range of like 200000 years i think. So when people say its ineffective they can tell its 1 million years old but they cannot be exact that its 1.25 million to the year. The evolution monkey think is this, they pretty much can prove we evolved but there are some spots in the middle where they don't have the fossil evidence to connect some pretty big gaps. This, many scientist believe is because as we evolved there were times our population waned same as any other animal due to environmental concerns. Seriously though if the person is intelligent and arguing ID they would stick close to science and say this is so complex it must have been designed. Not stick close to a literal interpretation of the bible timeline. That is just idiocy at its best.

P.S. No articles because I think your argument is pointless. These people are morons.

[Samus Aran]

Yeah, I see your point. It just annoys the piss out of me when people refuse to look at actual evidence that you can touch and would rather believe in something no one has ever seen.

[Bralkan]

edit: Better yet, see if you can get a copy of "Walking with the Caveman" or something like that. !!!

You could also check out wikipedia. They usually have information on books etc you can check out of your library.

Edit: We actually have a class here at West Georgia titled "So what do you really know about Darwinian Evolution?"

I learned more details - the various stepping stones building evolutionary theory. They also hammared on the importance of the scientific method and what "theory" really means. Living in georgia we have our share of stron christian-republicans. I think our baptist union is the largest "club" or whatever on campus of ~10k.Anyways, I was always very suprised by some of the questions and answers these students had.


At the end of the semester, the professors said "This class really had nothing to do with evolution. We wanted you guys to thinking like "skeptics". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_skepticism

[Kiely]

"The bible has never been wrong"

I hate parental upbringing like that. Has to be down to that.

Also - throw him a dvd of jurrasic park or something, without him knowing. Seems easiest way to introduce him into a point you can make.

[redav]

Ask them where in the bible is it stated how old the earth is.

[Bralkan]

Originally Posted by redav

Ask them where in the bible is it stated how old the earth is.

While it might prove that they just take Christian FUD and run with it, the age of the earth is learned through the Bible by looking at the family trees to extrapolate the supposed age of the earth.

But really, just ask them if they believe in Dinosaurs?

You could also get some recent articles on why the over-perscription of Anti-bodies the last decade has really hurt us. A lot of medications (such as penicillin) no longer work because doctors did / still don't understand Evolution.

If you take a bacteria and you attack it with 1 type of medication and you don't kill all the bacteria (through not finishing your medicine or getting perscriped medicine when you don't need it). This causes the illness (such as Tuberculosis) to evolve and become immune to that 1 type of attack. Now you have to treat it with a new type of medication. That is why now you are given ATLEAST 2 (it might be 3) "attacks" against TB. It helps to make sure TB will not get immune to our treatments. Lets say you get TB that is immune to AttackA - well, you still have AttackB and AttackC to kill all the TB. I hope you can see where this is going. You can also get arrested in some places for not finishing your TB medication. They will come and put you in jail (in New York for instance) if you don't show up to take it.They are NOT fucking around with how serious this is. This is all because of evolution. We can SEE EVOLUTION in these diseases because of their quick procreation rate. I can not go see some sentient being design falangie. But I can watch TB become immune to the cheapest 2 antibodies we can create and force us to make super-fucking unnatural antibodies that are distant relatives to the natural ones we used to use.

I really don't feel like typing out an entire lesson on evolution so I'm done.

Edit: I'm actually going to talk to those two professors I had for that class and see if I can get their powerpoints or something.

[Gudrid]

Originally Posted by Bralkan

But really, just ask them if they believe in Dinosaurs?

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml I doubt they'd know about those though haha.

Also, In the beginnning God created ...7th day he rested; Is it known that the 7days are in the same time measurements that we use 1day=24hrs?

[Cybsled]

It's a losing arguement. You can never win vs. those rock-headed morons. They will never accept any scientific evidence.

"Dur...teh grand canyon was carved in 5 days by Noah's Floodwaterz".

Your -BEST- bet is to attack them with what they throw at you: RELIGION.

Use other major world religions to fight their views. I have found this is by far the best method, because basically in the end you get them to admit that their religion is the one true religion and all the other ones are wrong, which exposes them for what they really are: fanatical brainwashed dumbfucks.

Great example: The great flood. Variations of this story exist in almost every culture on earth. Force them to explain why theirs is correct, but the Egyptian, Mayan, Chinese, Greek, or Ur versions are all wrong. They will be quick to point out that they all point to a flood (which I believe has scientific basis anyways...the end of the Ice Age was incredibly abrupt and would have more then likely caused wide spread flooding as trillions of tons of ice melted), but you must get them on the details.

So my suggestion is to avoid researching the science, and instead research other religions/myths and use that to attack them, since they cannot fall back on christian supported "science" to defend their claims.

[The Edge]

Sumerians boys, sumerians. It all goes back to them. Go check out http://xfacts.com/ for explanations on where all these stories came from and where different religions ripped off older ideas.

[Luthair]

As others have pointed out attempting to convince them of evolution is pointless. Usually the best stance is to not talk about it; if/when they try disprove evolution or "prove" ID simply point out the errors in their statements. (Logical fallacies, out of date or innaccurate information, etc.) Don't get drawn into a "debate", envitably they'll pull false science of their ass and it'll take forever to show whats wrong with each.

[Itzena]

Link them to An Open Letter to the Kansas School Board and tell them that it's just as valid as I.D.

[redav]

Originally Posted by Gudrid

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml I doubt they'd know about those though haha.

Also, In the beginnning God created ...7th day he rested; Is it known that the 7days are in the same time measurements that we use 1day=24hrs?

Pretty sure the days of creation are unmeasured and simply worded as the first occurrences of sunrise-sunset during this whole process and not their god checking a what would jesus do wristwatch like these unintelligent "intelligent design" people print in their coloring books.

[AngryGerbil]

I have a question for anyone who may be reading this who supports the idea of I.D. and who has the balls to step up to the plate. I'm gonna post it here since the other thread died.

Do you have kids?

No? Read no further.

Yes? Ok, then let me ask another question. Do you want them to get good grades in school? Would you be proud of them if they eventually became a reknowned chemist who discovered a clean burning fuel or a R&D medical scientist who found the cure for cancer? Would you be proud of them if they became the next Bill Gates? Would you be proud of them if the became a doctor or an astronaut?

You would? No shame, I would too. I think most any parent would. All of the above listed things are very noble and respectable professions worthy of praise and a healthy salary. =)

Yet, all of them are dependant on a fundamental understanding of science and/or the scientific method are they not? Why yes, in fact, they are. Without science and the scientific method, none of the above are possible. You simply have to agree here by the way, there is no other option. The polio vaccine was not discovered by a priest in a temple praying for a cure for polio...ya know?

So. You want your kid to get good grades and all that, pass science class with an "A+" and maybe become a rich doctor or whatever. Fair enough, so do I.

So here is my question. How do you, as a parent, justify to yourself the moment in which you must tell your child that everything they have learned in science and math class is correct and will help them become a chemist or an astronaut.....EXCEPT this. For "some" reason, THIS PART of science (evolution) is not correct. You have no evidence, you have no data, you have no real ground on which to stand (and you know it) and yet, you bald faced lie to your child, right through your teeth. How do you sleep at night? Because, not only do I think I lack the capability to lie to my children like that, I don't think I could sleep at night if I had.

It must take a mental fortitude againt reality of a degree in which I am glad to say, I do not posses.

Please answer, it is a subject of great interest to me personally.

[Insert post which addresses everything under the sun BUT my question (like nit-picking the Bill Gates thing)] or [Insert crickets chirping]

[titan_atlas]

Originally Posted by AngryGerbil

I have a question for anyone who may be reading this who supports the idea of I.D. and who has the balls to step up to the plate. I'm gonna post it here since the other thread died.

Do you have kids?

No? Read no further.

Yes? Ok, then let me ask another question. Do you want them to get good grades in school? Would you be proud of them if they eventually became a reknowned chemist who discovered a clean burning fuel or a R&D medical scientist who found the cure for cancer? Would you be proud of them if they became the next Bill Gates? Would you be proud of them if the became a doctor or an astronaut?

You would? No shame, I would too. I think most any parent would. All of the above listed things are very noble and respectable professions worthy of praise and a healthy salary. =)

Yet, all of them are dependant on a fundamental understanding of science and/or the scientific method are they not? Why yes, in fact, they are. Without science and the scientific method, none of the above are possible. You simply have to agree here by the way, there is no other option. The polio vaccine was not discovered by a priest in a temple praying for a cure for polio...ya know?

So. You want your kid to get good grades and all that, pass science class with an "A+" and maybe become a rich doctor or whatever. Fair enough, so do I.

So here is my question. How do you, as a parent, justify to yourself the moment in which you must tell your child that everything they have learned in science and math class is correct and will help them become a chemist or an astronaut.....EXCEPT this. For "some" reason, THIS PART of science (evolution) is not correct. You have no evidence, you have no data, you have no real ground on which to stand (and you know it) and yet, you bald faced lie to your child, right through your teeth. How do you sleep at night? Because, not only do I think I lack the capability to lie to my children like that, I don't think I could sleep at night if I had.

It must take a mental fortitude againt reality of a degree in which I am glad to say, I do not posses.

Please answer, it is a subject of great interest to me personally.

[Insert post which addresses everything under the sun BUT my question (like nit-picking the Bill Gates thing)] or [Insert crickets chirping]

As you may know I hate religious people. I have posted on it before. But I read something once talking about Albert Einstein and other great scientists who believed in something. So those brilliant minds found a middle ground somewhere, i'm sure there is a logical place for both.