The Terrorism Thread

[Eomer]

Decided to start a new thread, out of respect for the attacks and their victims.

Originally Posted by AG

For an example, see Africa.

For an even better example, see Nigeria, one of the most war torn and conflict filled countries of them all in Africa. Guess what they have? Oil! They happen to be predominantly Muslim too. Technically, they should be one of the most prosperous countries on the continent.

That's the scariest part about this "War on Terror." It's the Middle East Arabs/Muslims now. Even if we fix all the dysfunctional countries there, Africa is rapidly Islamizing (I made that word up) and the same fucked up extremism is going to take hold there, if we don't wake up. And some of those countries are very heavily armed as well. The only mitigating factor is that there isn't nearly the resource wealth in most of Africa, or if there is it requires significant infrastructure investment that won't happen until the place is less of a basket case. So at least they won't have access to cold hard currency in the way radical Arab Muslims have had.

Originally Posted by Mkopec

fuck, if we were so hard up for Iraq's oil, we would of had it long time ago, or at least set up a puppet gov and let that oil flow.

What the hell do you think Saddam was in the 80's? He was the US's best buddy, as evidenced by all the backroom dealing done to sneak him weapons and other shit he shouldn't have. Problem is, the puppet cut his strings and pissed off the master, as has happened over and over again. And it's the same people doing this shit, over and over again. Elliot Abrams. John Negroponte. Cheney. Wolfowitz. Pearle. There's a couple dozen of them that were all involved in all of Reagan's bullshit conflicts throughout South America, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and they all came back out of the wood work to form the backbone of Bush's foreign policy direction. And the same shit's happening all over again. I can just imagine what new version of the Iran Contra those assholes are cooking up again.

[Kildace]

I'm going to reply to a post from the London thread.

Originally Posted by Himeo

There has never been a terrost attack by Al Qaeda in GB before. They have had a long history of issues with the IRA. Dick waving contest? You sir, are a fucktard.

You were the one that used the word "Bring closer to the mark" and compared the number of casualties of 9/11 to the ones of today's events, almost belitteling (sp?) what had happened in London. England knew terrorism before, England has been fighting terrorism for much longer than the US has (since you guys only realised that there were terrorists in the world when they decided to turn on *you*). This is not going to be anyone's wake up call, because most Western European countries have had many terrorist attacks on their soil (little known fact : a bomb exploded on the Paris subway 7 years ago and was revendicated by a Muslim extermist group, did anyone in the US care?) and have learnt to deal with it without bombing and "freeing" entire countries.

Originally Posted by Himeo

There is a large gap between America, GB, and hell the rest of Europe over the way America looks at the war compared to everyone else. We've taken a proactive stance and taken a shitload of flak.

What war are you talking about. Are you talking about the war in Irak? If so please show me any links between Irak and Al Quaeda. And if you're talking about the "war on terror", I have never heard any country speak against it, but looking back I'm not sure what you guys have accomplished : you bombed Afghanistan but still let Bin Laden and a sizeable amount of Al Quaeda's high ranking officers escape and .. hmm .. Bush made speeches?

The real war on terror should be waged against Saudi Arabia, these people are the money behind Al Quaeda, they provide weapons, infrastructure and logistics, but they're also one of the US' primary oil provider so I guess that any war on terror waged doesn't apply to them, huh?

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Kildace

I'm going to reply to a post from the London thread.



You were the one that used the word "Bring closer to the mark" and compared the number of casualties of 9/11 to the ones of today's events, almost belitteling (sp?) what had happened in London. England knew terrorism before, England has been fighting terrorism for much longer than the US has (since you guys only realised that there were terrorists in the world when they decided to turn on *you*). This is not going to be anyone's wake up call, because most Western European countries have had many terrorist attacks on their soil (little known fact : a bomb exploded on the Paris subway 7 years ago and was revendicated by a Muslim extermist group, did anyone in the US care?) and have learnt to deal with it without bombing and "freeing" entire countries.




What war are you talking about. Are you talking about the war in Irak? If so please show me any links between Irak and Al Quaeda. And if you're talking about the "war on terror", I have never heard any country speak against it, but looking back I'm not sure what you guys have accomplished : you bombed Afghanistan but still let Bin Laden and a sizeable amount of Al Quaeda's high ranking officers escape and .. hmm .. Bush made speeches?

The real war on terror should be waged against Saudi Arabia, these people are the money behind Al Quaeda, they provide weapons, infrastructure and logistics, but they're also one of the US' primary oil provider so I guess that any war on terror waged doesn't apply to them, huh?

First off Kildace, let us get off the your country is worse or better than mine garbage that you are spewing about the US vs France. Each country has it's skeletons in its closets and France is no stranger to meddling in affairs of other countries in regard to its "best interests".

As far as, the statement that France has not bombed other countries is not due to your "holier than thou" politics or views of your politicians. It has more to do with your geographical location, ability to mobilize troops/military, and basic logistics. Trust me if France had the military might of the USA they would be no better (and imho worse than) how the US is using it's military might.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.



Dis

[Kildace]

Originally Posted by Dis

First off Kildace, let us get off the your country is worse or better than mine garbage that you are spewing about the US vs France. Each country has it's skeletons in its closets and France is no stranger to meddling in affairs of other countries in regard to its "best interests".

As far as, the statement that France has not bombed other countries is not due to your "holier than thou" politics or views of your politicians. It has more to do with your geographical location, ability to mobilize troops/military, and basic logistics. Trust me if France had the military might of the USA they would be no better (and imho worse than) how the US is using it's military might.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

So your whole rebutal to my post is "If you had been us, you'd have dealt with terrorism as badly as we have"?

Additionally, please point me to the parts of my post where I stated that France is better than the united states, or that we have never used our assets to pursue selfish interests.

I am not interested in comparing France to the US, we are far from a flawless nation, our leaders are also somewhat retarded and I'm not much of a patriot these days, but you didn't answer any of my points : I brought up valid inconsistencies in your current foreign policies, inconsistencies that affect the whole world, the fact that we would probably not have done better is all well and good, but it doesn't explain or excuse anything that your leaders have done.

Edit:

I imagine that you were reacting to:

Originally Posted by Kildace

most Western European countries have had many terrorist attacks on their soil (little known fact : a bomb exploded on the Paris subway 7 years ago and was revendicated by a Muslim extermist group, did anyone in the US care?) and have learnt to deal with it without bombing and "freeing" entire countries.

I wasn't talking about France specifically, and I also wasn't talking about Al Quaeda, I didn't see Great Britain launch a military attack on Ireland and seize control of the country to retaliate against the perpetual IRA attacks, did you? (Yes I do realise that my analogy is far fetched ... the IRA terrorists *are* Irish whereas the Al Quaeda terrorists weren't Iraqi)

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Kildace

So your whole rebutal to my post is "If you had been us, you'd have dealt with terrorism as badly as we have"?

Additionally, please point me to the parts of my post where I stated that France is better than the united states, or that we have never used our assets to pursue selfish interests.

I am not interested in comparing France to the US, we are far from a flawless nation, our leaders are also somewhat retarded and I'm not much of a patriot these days, but you didn't answer any of my points : I brought up valid inconsistencies in your current foreign policies, inconsistencies that affect the whole world, the fact that we would probably not have done better is all well and good, but it doesn't explain or excuse anything that your leaders have done.

Edit:

I imagine that you were reacting to:



I wasn't talking about France specifically, and I also wasn't talking about Al Quaeda, I didn't see Great Britain launch a military attack on Ireland and seize control of the country to retaliate against the perpetual IRA attacks, did you? (Yes I do realise that my analogy is far fetched ... the IRA terrorists *are* Irish whereas the Al Quaeda terrorists weren't Iraqi)

Kildace you are correct about the statement. Also if you read my past post in the two other threads pertaining to this topic I am clearly not happy with the way the US government has handled the situation. I am a patriot (proud to be an American) but I am pissed at our leadership for throwing our troops out in a situation they really had no business being in the first place. I see places like Iran and Afghanistan being a much more higher priority.

I am simply stating that we (the industrialized world) each has a hand in this mess all in the name of energy, and it is the US troops along with the citizens of the country we are occupying that are paying the price with their lives.


Dis

[Kildace]

I am simply stating that we (the industrialized world) each has a hand in this mess all in the name of energy, and it is the US troops along with the citizens of the country we are occupying that are paying the price with their lives.

I agree with that

[Matt the Gimp]

the USA gets like 90% of their oil from Nigeria and Venezuala. gg

[Eomer]

The US produces 40% of it's oil domestically, and the single largest supplier of oil to the US is Canada. OPEC oil counts for less than 20-30% of US oil consumption, as far as I know.

[Kildace]

I was wrong about the oil consumption then.
Still doesn't change the fact that most of the terrorist's funds come from Saudi Arabia, but that the name of that country is never even mentioned by the bush administration when talking about the war on terror.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Kildace

I was wrong about the oil consumption then.
Still doesn't change the fact that most of the terrorist's funds come from Saudi Arabia, but that the name of that country is never even mentioned by the bush administration when talking about the war on terror.

Ohh gee, lets attack their true holyland. Lets attack where all the true radicals are on their home turf. You even know what kind of shitstorm this would cause? You think terrorism is bad now? Imagine what it would be like if there where tanks strolling threw Mecca.

Iraq is actually pretty smart. It draws all those zealots into one area so we can waste them without really pissing off the majority of Arabs. Its already working considering most insurgents killed are NOT Iraqi.

And why all this focus about Bush and the Saudis?? Why isnt that piece of shit Clinton ever brought up? He was getting BJs as our Embassies where being blown up. He let the WTC towers be attacked and did nothing. He let a military warship be attacked and did nothing. He never said a damn thing to the Saudis yet you dont here the sheep screaming his name.

[Kildace]

Ohh gee, lets attack their true holyland. Lets attack where all the true radicals are on their home turf. You even know what kind of shitstorm this would cause? You think terrorism is bad now? Imagine what it would be like if there where tanks strolling threw Mecca.

What kind of logic is that? Terrorists all come from Saoudi Arabia so let's .. pretend the country doesn't exist and not do anything about it.

I guess that this is just not how I envision a war on terror. I somehow thought that it'd involve stuff like .. stopping terrorists and not using scapegoat nations because going after the people that are responsible for 9/11 might be hard. My bad.

PS: All the problems in the world are not solved by throwing tanks and bombs at them. Economic warfare and freezing the assets of the Saudi Princes would be a great first step torwards stopping that money from going to Bin Laden.

[Jait]

Originally Posted by Kildace

I was wrong about the oil consumption then.
Still doesn't change the fact that most of the terrorist's funds come from Saudi Arabia, but that the name of that country is never even mentioned by the bush administration when talking about the war on terror.

Oh how quickly we backpedal. I'm all for attacking the Saudis as are many Americans, but sadly we think ahead. There's still the small matter of nations like Iraq and Afghanistan who would immediately provide millions of soldiers in a war against us vs Saudi Arabia. Missed that part while stealing from my other post, didn't you? You French who have just as many lucrative investments in SA as anyone else would call us conquerors and try to convince the world to stop us. It's so utterly consistant of you people, demand us to call out the Saudis because your Nation is far too much of a pussy to ever do it? As you've mentioned, you've been attacked too, but once again you want us to be your proxy...

There are people dead in the streets and you want to "Win at the Message board" game and whine that no one cares when Paris gets bombed? Exploiting this to "1-up" other people is so fucking typical of you French. But now you've dragged me to your level so let me school you on some of the most basic undisputed facts:

Your country was CONQUERED utterly, only 60 years ago, and saved by the US, Britain, and Russia. Oh, I'm sure you've disavowed yourself of any reality and can convince yourself it was the acts of the fabled Resistance and Partisans, but the truth is you rolled over to tyrants (not the first time, and not the last), and we didn't and still don't. We could've sued for peace, we could have watched your nation go back to it's German roots, but we didn't, we saved you. Never have so few sacrificed so much, only to watch as your nation today now holds the 3rd largest reserve of Nuclear Arms after Russia and America, and you want to preach about modern proliferation and escalation?! Go look up where those nukes are currently aimed at, would you? Surprise surprise, Muslim nations (Yes Iraq too, funny being so innocent and all)... and China. There's always a person who can identify every problem and never offer a real solution, that's the easy part, that's all it takes to be an ignorant moron. Just yesterday you fucking people were whining about "favoritism towards anglo-saxons" and your own President bashed Britain on everything from Mad Cow disease to NATO because of sour grapes over the Olympics. It's surprising they didn't want to hold the Olympics in a place best known for dog shit on the sidewalk and Body Odor. There are no "Good guys" in war and murder, only those who seek to protect the innocent and those who go out of their way to murder them with impunity. The blood of Charlemagne runs weak in your people veins, and I'm ashamed to share that one common element with you. For me it burns brightly, and I know who the "Home Team" is and it sure as shit aint the terrorists. There is no perfect or even "good" nation in times of war. War in itself is a crime, we deal in consequence. But this is all pedantic and trivial and any 15 year old who's bothered to read the classics knows this innately.

Go let these people bury their dead before you preach your limited perception of the facts to us. Go out and be a candystriper or tend to the wounded if you want to help, don't come to a MMO message board, stand on a soapbox and criticize every nation that's actually looking for reasonable solutions rather than stand on the sidelines behind a massive missile shield and bitch and moan about their 11% unemployment. Fucking collaboraters, if you weren't "white" you'd have been wiped from the face of the Earth years ago and finish what almost ever other European nation started. How's that for your inconsistant irony?

The Algerian Rebellion. Indochina. Franco Prussian war. Huguenots. The Italian Wars. The Gallic Wars. You keep pissing me off and I'll start schooling you about these events as well, today my province is the present, don't force me to talk about your centuries of slave trade, drug trade, and collective absence of anything remotely resembling intelligence nor wisdom. Your nation has more collective skeletons than the UK and America could ever dream of, and that's saying a lot.

[Kildace]

Originally Posted by Jait

Oh how quickly we backpedal.

Admitting that I was wrong while still standing by what I said is not backpedalling.

Originally Posted by Jait

I'm all for attacking the Saudis as are many Americans, but sadly we think ahead. There's still the small matter of nations like Iraq and Afghanistan who would immediately provide millions of soldiers in a war against us vs Saudi Arabia.

See my answer to Phoenix's post. There are ways to solve problems that don't involve bombing. I am also not saying that you *should* attack Saudi Arabia, what I am saying, is that if Iraq was attacked because of its ties to Al Quaeda like your administration stated it was, then there is no reason why Saudi Arabia was left untouched.

Originally Posted by Jait

Missed that part while stealing from my other post, didn't you?

Huh?
I never even quoted you.

Originally Posted by Jait

demand us to call out the Saudis because your Nation is far too much of a pussy to ever do it?

All I am demanding is consistency in your foreign policy since you apparently feel that you are qualified to police the world.

Originally Posted by Jait

As you've mentioned, you've been attacked too, but once again you want us to be your proxy...

What the hell. If you're going to educate me about history, please get your facts straight. We were bombed by an independant Algerian group that had nothing to do with Al Quaeda. The group was then partly dismantled, and some of the logisticians behind of the attack were brought to justice, fyi.

Originally Posted by Jait

There are people dead in the streets and you want to "Win at the Message board" game and whine that no one cares when Paris gets bombed?

What. The. Fuck.
First of all, I'm not whining that no one cares when Paris get bombed, I was saying that the US started to care about terrorism when *they* were hit, and that other countries had been attacked before them.
And what the hell is that winning about message boards and people dead in the streets crap? When people die you're supposed to stop debating the foreign policy of a completely different country?

Originally Posted by Jait

Exploiting this to "1-up" other people is so fucking typical of you French.

And a whole bunch of crap about France

I find this extremely amusing because this is fairly typical of what happens on 90% of the american-dominated message boards I've been to. I'm going to say it once more, and caps lock it so maybe it will finaly get through your thick skull.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT FRANCE IS ANY BETTER.

Got it?
What I am saying, is that while France is not any better, WE are not the ones who declared the war on terror, WE are not the one who attacked Iraq, and most important of all *I* am not the one who is defending our foreign policy on message boards, mainly because I don't agree with it.

That's the whole difference between you and I. I am not blinded by some sort of freak patriotism and I recognize that my country is not flawless and makes mistakes, and when I get called out on the mistakes I don't go on some ridiculously prejudiced rant that mixes plain xenophobia, stereotypes and inconsequential historical "facts", I admit that my country is wrong and move on.

France might not have a moral highground on the US, but judging from your post, I definitly have the moral highground on you, don't hesitate to post again when you want to actually discuss the subject at hand instead of taking out your PMS on me and making jokes about French people's BO (Lol all americans are fat lol). And yes, I am discussing foreign policy on a MMO message board on the day that the UK was attacked. It doesn't mean that I do not care or mourn for the people that died today, it just means that I chose to parttake in a thread called "The terrorism thread" and answer some comments on another thread that I disagreed with. If it makes me some kind of monster, so be it.

Additionally, I am not standing on a soapbox, I am discussing some aspects of things that I disagree with (shocking behaviour on a message board, huh?). Sadly the concept of discussion seems to be lost on you and you apparently thought it'd be more appropriate to flame me than to calmly prove me wrong. Can't say that I'm surprised though, that seems to be most people's line of defense.

This will also be my last post in this thread, I should have known better

edit: added and edited a bunch of stuff.

[AngryGerbil]

You know what sucks? I think the Iraq war was a farce to begin with but...

I also think that the western world (North America, Europe, Australia, a few others) are natural cultural allies. The middle east is our mutual cultural enemy. Can any of us here deny it? A Pakistani mayor (or whatever their equivalent is called) sentencing a young woman to legally sanctioned gang rape because her brother was courting a woman of a higher caste and her rich dad got pissed? I mean, what the fuck? Pakistan, Musharaff or no, nukes or no, fuck em. They are not on our "team" and all of us here know it.

I cannot prove it, and it is somewhat pretentious of me to say it, but I will say it only because it is true: I said before 9/11 that the "western world" and the "middle eastern" world CANNOT co-exist. We WILL have to fight each other and one of us will cease to exist, in time.

We ("we" in this case meaning "the civilized western world", all of us, not just America) need to fight against them ("them" in this case meaning "the radical islamist world", all of them, whether or not their leaders kiss western ass or not like Musharaff). We need to fight against them, period.

And, like it or not, that fight has begun. Whether it began on 9/11 or the invasion of Iraq or today in London or way way before that doesn't matter. What matters is, the fight is on my friends, and we need to FIGHT it.

I do not agree with how Bush and Blair inserted us into the middle east, but they did it, and we have to back them, all of us.

Why? Because of what happened today. Madrid, New York, London, who's next? Rome, Moscow, Copenhagen? We have to fight back. And here is the key....the sad fact....we have to cooperate. America cannot do it alone. I don't care what some poe-dunk shit hole country thinks about us, the truth is, we cannot do it alone. And I don't care what some gung-ho redneck from Texas thinks, we cannot do this alone. We need the help of everyone.

Fuck the French who won't back us in Iraq. Fuck the Americans who won't get off their high horse and give an ear to our friends (I still consider France as a friend) for one minute. But ultimately, fuck anyone, from this point on who won't fight back. I am at a point where I can forgive past transgressions, but guys, we need to move forward.

Every time we bicker amongst ourselves (France vs America or whatever else) we hurt ourselves. The enemy is radical islamist culture, let none of us forget that. That culture must be eradicated. And I will, albeit begrudgingly, follow even Bush whom I despise, if it means that we are at least doing SOMETHING. Appeasement doesn't work folks, we learned this the hard way in 1939.

[Bralkan]

I was against going into Iraq. I'm not very fond of Bush, either. However, I am tired of people saying we must pull out. Do they not realize the shit storm that would happen if we just up and left Iraq?

You know, Gerbils right I guess. Now that the shit is on we have to support them. Am I pissed as shit that I have to? Hell fucking yes. I wanted to finish Afghanistan before we started anything else - and actually debate about it instead of throwing shit about terrorists and nuclear/biological weapons to whip up the public into support of invading iraq. I strongly believe our founding fathers believed in reason and logic - all things that ARE NOT REACTIONARY.