The Terrorism Thread

[Mkopec1]

In retrospect, should we be in Iraq right now? Probably not.

But I honestly dont think that Bush had some evil hidden agenda, he was simply fed false information from his FBI and CIA sources and he acted on them.

I mean, quite honestly with Sadaams past, and the info that he had biological and nerve agents and he was mass producing them. I me an WTF would you do? This is what he was fed by his sources, which were supposed to be reliable. and all this after 911, mind you. We were in a diffrent train of thought. strike first, before we get struck.

And who the fuck knows the truth? Just because we did not find those WMD's does not mean they dont exist, got moved, whatever. That fucker had plenty of time to move his shit to another country. Hello Syria!

Blame those CIA and FBI fucknuts, not Bush.

I still have faith in our forces there and the good they are doing there. If we do suceed in making Iraq a stable Democracy in that region, it can only be a good thing. As they say freedom spreads so who knows what will happen in that region because of this action in Iraq.

People in Iran are starting to revolt....The Saudis are getting pissed at the Royal Family....Its an unstable time in that region and having a Democracy there will only show the people how true freedom is.

I have a feeling that history will show that we did a good thing there, no matter what the pretences were.

[sarinrathe]

It seems most of these terrorism threads devolve into finger pointing, flaming and "fuck terrorism" acknowledgement. No one gives a legit plan for fighting this so-called war.

Thus far, Americans are in two camps - whether the Iraq war was justified or not. A large majority think, however, that we need to clean up the mess we made. Angry Gerbil just gave a rousing rah-rah speech for World War III (Hajii vs. GI Joe).

What's the right approach? Slugging out a war of attrition in the streets of Baghdad? Conservative estimates (no timetable!) put that at years. Blowing away poor disgruntled insurgents from Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc does not win the war on terror. They'll keep coming. And our troops will keep getting killed and maimed from improvised explosives and suicide bombs.

Two things:

1. Less bombs and grunts; more intel, espionage. There have been imbedded reporters stationed with insurgent groups. They've interviewed jihadist leaders and sheiks. If the media can do it, why can't the military? We need arabic-speaking James Bonds to infiltrate and move up the ranks. al-Zaqarwi posts his damn beheading videos on some server, hack that shit. The RIAA can find out who's downloading the latest Green Day single but the CIA can't track the IP of Mo Terrorist's laptop? Sure, some of these guys disdain the technology, live in caves, eat babies, etc. But for a coordinated attack (ala London 7/7), they need cell phones, transportation, bomb timers, a place to stay, lots of liquid cash. Do some detective work. Seriously, cut back on the $180 billion F-16 bombardments and hire Jack Bauer.

2. Shame the extremists. Thomas Friedman has an interesting article here: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/08/op...%20F riedman). We need to up the PR for the conservative Muslim Leaders. They're the one's who will help us out, in denouncing the fundamentalists and suicide bombers. Just recently, the delegation from Egypt was heading to Iraq to chat it up with the new government. Guess, what, they got kidnapped and executed! (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/08/news/egypt.php) This hasn't been in the news much, but that was a serious mistake. These are the guys that help/influence Iraq and give the new government legitimacy. The locals don’t see them an crusaders. These are the muslim leaders who will bring reform. These guys (the first diplomatic group to visit the new govt of Iraq), should have been surrounded by a fucking battalion of Navy Seals, and they ended up getting kidnapped in an open air bazaar. Thumbs up our asses!

Like Behemoth said in the thread about War of the Worlds, wishing he had a cane to knock the directors on the head. "Hello McFly" HELLO? MCFLY?" Exactly.

[AngryGerbil]

All of that is fine and good sarin but I wonder if it's enough. I don't profess to know the answers but I am certainly leaning toward the camp that says "If you harbor terrorists, prepare to evacuate all central government buildings because we are comming for you next."

While we clean up in Iraq, France should be lining up on Syria's border. While we probe caves in Afghanistan, Spain should be giving Pakistan ultimatums. We should all be saying clearly to these middle eastern countries "Clean up your act or we'll do it for you." And let's not forget Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too gung-ho about it. I just keep thinking of the little kids in the grocery store whining and crying and bitching and cursing at their mothers whose only response is "Honey, please be quiet." When what that little shit really needs is five across the eyes.

[sarinrathe]

We already killed two countries. I highly doubt killing a few more will stop the terrorists.

The London bombing was probably done by a rich EU citizen, his cousin from Lebanon and their summer camp kiddies from Iran. They were probably part of the bin Laden fan club, but weren't taking orders from him. That’s it. They don’t have nukes or departments of state. They have big bank accounts, internet connections and a fucked up worldview.

Remember, these guys work outside of government structure. Hell, a lot of them are citizens of 1st world countries! There's nowhere for us to plant a flag and construct a memorial. Stomping the sovereignty of indigenous people paints us as bullies and fuels the fire, not extinguishes it.

[Furism]

I think you guys should put your heads out of your asses. It's been proven over and over that Iraq didn't have WMD. It's known Iraq doesn't have any link whatsoever with any terrorist group, because it was, like, the only laic country in middle west. But Iraq happens to be the second largest oil ressource in the world. Now tell me, are you too dumb to realize that Bush went there so US oil companies could make a profit out of it? Killing 100,000 civils in the process, not county US soldiers. And the "but, but, but Saddam was bad!" is bullshit. There are a whole lot of dictators far worse in the world. China (you go to jail for life if you even speak of the idea of eventually forming a union). North Korea (they have labor camps 3rd reich-style). Many African countries (leaders there seize AIDS treatment sent for free, so they can then sell them to populations).

Now, if my government did that, you could be sure there would be an unrest in the streets. But not in the US, somehow, and I think it's because your culture makes it so you trust your government too much.

[Mkopec1]

You have to look to the core of the problem. What makes a terrorist? And why do they feel the need to be militant?

Although im a regular Joe and dont really know shit, I have a feeling that the problem is two fold..

1. Opression of people. This is the problem with dictatorships and hard lined religous extremists running countries. People get opressed and they lash out, against others or themselves.

2. Education is a big reason also. And it really stems from the above problem of opressing the people. If you have hard lined religous extremists running countries, and not allowing education other than religion, this too will lead to terrorism. The people become so blinded with religous rhetoric being fed down their throats form the time they are old enough to understand language, its not really hard to control those poeple by the fear of gods.

And this is where the democratic style of government can step in and solve both of those problems.

[Furism]

Originally Posted by AngryGerbil

All of that is fine and good sarin but I wonder if it's enough. I don't profess to know the answers but I am certainly leaning toward the camp that says "If you harbor terrorists, prepare to evacuate all central government buildings because we are comming for you next."

While we clean up in Iraq, France should be lining up on Syria's border. While we probe caves in Afghanistan, Spain should be giving Pakistan ultimatums. We should all be saying clearly to these middle eastern countries "Clean up your act or we'll do it for you." And let's not forget Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too gung-ho about it. I just keep thinking of the little kids in the grocery store whining and crying and bitching and cursing at their mothers whose only response is "Honey, please be quiet." When what that little shit really needs is five across the eyes.

What for? Terrorists are not armies. 99,9% of Syria's population don't know a terrorist. You want to attack them, for what? You're only going to alienate them and then turn them into terrorists. Fuck, if you come to my home because, for some reasons, you suspect I'm a terrorist, bringing me to jail where I'll be held on a leash by a 20 years old US girl who thinks it's funny to take pictures of me while my balls being burnt by a battery, don't you think I'll only want revenge then? I'll want to kill you, with a big smile on my face. And you would do the same.

[gavinrad]

Originally Posted by Furism

I think you guys should put your heads out of your asses. It's been proven over and over that Iraq didn't have WMD. It's known Iraq doesn't have any link whatsoever with any terrorist group, because it was, like, the only laic country in middle west. But Iraq happens to be the second largest oil ressource in the world. Now tell me, are you too dumb to realize that Bush went there so US oil companies could make a profit out of it? Killing 100,000 civils in the process, not county US soldiers. And the "but, but, but Saddam was bad!" is bullshit. There are a whole lot of dictators far worse in the world. China (you go to jail for life if you even speak of the idea of eventually forming a union). North Korea (they have labor camps 3rd reich-style). Many African countries (leaders there seize AIDS treatment sent for free, so they can then sell them to populations).

Now, if my government did that, you could be sure there would be an unrest in the streets. But not in the US, somehow, and I think it's because your culture makes it so you trust your government too much.

Congratulations, you are an ignorant douchebag who has fallen for that wonderful thing called propaganda. I'm too lazy to repost the figures for US oil consumption, I'll just point out that A: they were already posted in this thread, and B: You are a fucking dumbass.

[Furism]

Originally Posted by gavinrad

Congratulations, you are an ignorant douchebag who has fallen for that wonderful thing called propaganda. I'm too lazy to repost the figures for US oil consumption, I'll just point out that A: they were already posted in this thread, and B: You are a fucking dumbass.

After such a display of poetic skills, maybe you can then be, like, constructive and tell me why the USA attacked Iraq, then ? I'm just an ignorant douchebag looking to learn from bright people here.

[AngryGerbil]

Originally Posted by Furism

I think you guys should put your heads out of your asses. It's been proven over and over that Iraq didn't have WMD. It's known Iraq doesn't have any link whatsoever with any terrorist group, because it was, like, the only laic country in middle west. But Iraq happens to be the second largest oil ressource in the world. Now tell me, are you too dumb to realize that Bush went there so US oil companies could make a profit out of it? Killing 100,000 civils in the process, not county US soldiers. And the "but, but, but Saddam was bad!" is bullshit. There are a whole lot of dictators far worse in the world. China (you go to jail for life if you even speak of the idea of eventually forming a union). North Korea (they have labor camps 3rd reich-style). Many African countries (leaders there seize AIDS treatment sent for free, so they can then sell them to populations).

Now, if my government did that, you could be sure there would be an unrest in the streets. But not in the US, somehow, and I think it's because your culture makes it so you trust your government too much.

Thanks for really not having any idea what we are talking about. Noone is arguing what you just said. For fucks sake man, read the thread before you post. We are talking about terrorism, not WMDs, not oil, not even Bush really. The time for squabbling over the reasons we went into Iraq is gone. That time was November '04, and the people spoke.

The question is now that we find ourselves in the situation we are in, how do we continue? How do we move forward from here? You offered nothing, thanks.

To sarin:

I'm inclined (not determined mind you, just inclined atm) to say "fuck your sovereignty". When you harbor international terrorists or create an environment which coddles them, then you forfeit that sovereignty. Am I going overboard by saying "might makes right"? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Iraqi connection to al-queda having existed or not doesn't matter at this point, we did it anyway. We know that countries like Syria and Iran and Saudi Arabia are breeding grounds and harborers. Would pulling an Operation Iraqi Freedom type operation on those countries help to ferret out those in command? I am, again, inclined to think it would.

[Furism]

Well maybe I was a little off topic. I guess what scares me is that you know you were lied to, and you don't even seem to care. A lot of people died, and yet some people in this very thread keep saying "I don't know if it was a mistake". When people don't learn from history, it repeats itself.

How you stop terrorism? You first try and stop being hated. That means to let countries keep the product of their land (yes, oil, among other things), so they don't feel you came just to rob them. And not only the people of these countries, but you also need to make sure people of the other countries know that you are want to help. You don't need to send soldiers in to do that.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Furism

I think you guys should put your heads out of your asses. It's been proven over and over that Iraq didn't have WMD. It's known Iraq doesn't have any link whatsoever with any terrorist group, because it was, like, the only laic country in middle west. But Iraq happens to be the second largest oil ressource in the world. Now tell me, are you too dumb to realize that Bush went there so US oil companies could make a profit out of it? Killing 100,000 civils in the process, not county US soldiers. And the "but, but, but Saddam was bad!" is bullshit. There are a whole lot of dictators far worse in the world. China (you go to jail for life if you even speak of the idea of eventually forming a union). North Korea (they have labor camps 3rd reich-style). Many African countries (leaders there seize AIDS treatment sent for free, so they can then sell them to populations).

Now, if my government did that, you could be sure there would be an unrest in the streets. But not in the US, somehow, and I think it's because your culture makes it so you trust your government too much.

Werrent you fuckers over there shaking hands with Saddam too? Even when you guys agreed to the UN sanctions which you fuckers signed also? Backdooring deals "Oil for food" which broke UN agreements?

Is this why you guys were so vehemently agains the war? Is your government feeding you a bunch of shit also?

And please link me anything, anything of any credibility of how US is getting its oil from Iraq now. Or anytime in tha past 20 years.

Its the old "War for Oil" Bs that every frenchie claims, except where the fuck is this oil ging? It sure isnt coming here.

[sarinrathe]

What does "harbor" mean?

They hang out in the presidential palace and shoot pool with the Calif?

or

They live deep in a cave at 14,000 feet inside the borders of the country?

or

They blend in with everyday citizens, run legitimate businesses, and conduct their terror through fiber optic cables and radio waves?

------

All of the above have probably happened. And you'd be suprised who was buddy buddy with the monarchies, and who actually got invaded.

[Furism]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

Werrent you fuckers over there shaking hands with Saddam too? Even when you guys agreed to the UN sanctions which you fuckers signed also? Backdooring deals "Oil for food" which broke UN agreements?

Oh yes. One or two people did. But it wasn't a directive from the government. Several individuals with good connections did.

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

Is this why you guys were so vehemently agains the war? Is your government feeding you a bunch of shit also?

I don't think so. I think it's because we knew that a call to arms isn't the solution to everything, because long before the US we were a colonial force and we lost a lot because of that. We learnt that violence, military isn't has effective as diplomacy, embargo or what you will. It's not being a pussy, it's learning from your mistakes.

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

And please link me anything, anything of any credibility of how US is getting its oil from Iraq now. Or anytime in tha past 20 years.

Its the old "War for Oil" Bs that every frenchie claims, except where the fuck is this oil ging? It sure isnt coming here.

Will somebody please tell me why the US invaded Iraq if it wasn't for WMDs, terrorist groups or oil ?

In any case, and no I don't have the link here because I'm lazy, the oil is being sold but the money directly comes to US companies rebuilding the country. Iraq doesn't get much money from their oil. See, oil itself isn't much of a big deal by itself, it's the money it's worth people want (and don't get me wrong, France would want a share of it too).

Like Kildace I'm not saying France is a better country than the US. We too fucked a lot of countries over, and still do.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by sarinrathe

What does "harbor" mean?

They hang out in the presidential palace and shoot pool with the Calif?

or

They live deep in a cave at 14,000 feet inside the borders of the country?

or

They blend in with everyday citizens, run legitimate businesses, and conduct their terror through fiber optic cables and radio waves?

------

All of the above have probably happened. And you'd be suprised who was buddy buddy with the monarchies, and who actually got invaded.

I think harboring means that you as a country know that you have terrorist cells in your country conducting business and you look the other way, even in some cases funding their efforts.